Cognates

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Osias
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Re: Cognates

Postby Osias » 2019-06-30, 16:20

Saramago books are published here with no alterations.
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Re: Cognates

Postby Luís » 2019-07-01, 9:07

Ciarán12 wrote:
Osias wrote:Nunca vi essa palavra em mais de 40 anos, acho que nem o Michel Temer usa. :D


Além disso, alguns dos livros dele que eu li eram "traduções" em português de Portugal (que são mais fáceis achar aqui as vezes), talvez seja uma palavra mais comum lá em Portugal.


Também é a primeira vez que vejo essa palavra... :P

OldBoring wrote:It's a well-known fact that Paulo Coelho's books are "translated" into Portuguese Portuguese for the Portugal's market. I'm surprised Osias is surprised.


I wouldn't say "translated", they mostly tend to adapt the spelling. Brazilians do the same with Portuguese authors.

Osias wrote:Saramago books are published here with no alterations.


Saramago is a well-known exception, he basically forbade any changes to his original (Portuguese) text.
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Re: Cognates

Postby Osias » 2019-07-01, 11:27

Having said all that, I believe 100% Coelho used an obscure word in the original.
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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-07-04, 3:49

The words for 'sculpture', 'music', and 'dome', and to some extent also 'dance', 'temple', and 'song', were adopted into Dravidian languages from Sanskrit. However, the word for 'art' went in the opposite direction:

Tamil (ta) கற்க karka ([kaˈka]?) - to learn
Tamil (ta) கலை kalai ([kaˈləj]?]) - art
Malayalam (ml) കല [kəˈla] - art
Toda: [kaɬ] - learn!
Sanskrit (sa) कला kalā - art
Urdu (ur) کل / Hindi (hi) कल [kəl] - (small) part, side, machine (part), instrument, lock, trap, trigger, hammer (of gun)
Marathi (mr) कळ [kəɭ] - sharp pain, gadget, argument

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Re: Cognates

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2019-07-12, 8:47

(en) chariot
(sc) carriottu (little cart)

(en) mattock
(sc) matzocca (kind of wooden club)

(en) boar
(sc) berre
(la) verres

(en) wade
(sc) badu (ford)
(la) vadus (ford)

(en) to jump
(la) iumpare (vulgar Latin. derived from "triumphare" -> tri iump(h)are = to exult/jump three times)
(sc) iumpare, iampare (to cross a road or a creek with a jump)

(en) flurry
(sc) furriare (throw something away making it spin in the air)

(en) pitch
(sc) pighe (pitch)
(la) picem (accusative of "pix-picis" - pitch)

(en) fag (remaining part, sediment)
(sc) feghe (remaining part, sediment)
(la) fecem (accusative of "fex-fecis" remaining part, sediment; also the same root of the English "feces")

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2019-07-12, 15:03

Several of these are chance resemblances rather than cognates.

(en) boar < PGmc. *bairaz < PIE *bʰoydʰ-s-o < *bʰodʰ "dig"
(sc) berre < (la) verres < PIE *wers- "male"

(en) to jump < PGmc. *gempaną < PIE *gʷʰemb- "spring, hop, jump"
(la) iumpare (vulgar Latin. derived from "triumphare" ->tri iump(h)are = to exult/jump three times)

Latin triumphus is from Greek θρίαμβος "hymn to Dionysus". What's your source for the Sardinian etymology?

(en) flurry < blend of flutter (< PGmc *flutrōną) and hurry (< PGmc *hurzaną)
(sc) furriare (throw something away making it spin in the air)

(en) fag (remaining part, sediment)

Not from Latin faex but probably an alteration of flag < Old French flac < Latin flaccus

(sc) feghe (remaining part, sediment)
(la) fecem (accusative of "fex-fecis" remaining part, sediment; also the same root of the English "feces")

What source are you using for the etymology of English words?
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Re: Cognates

Postby Homine.Sardu » 2019-07-12, 15:18

Simply comparing them with Latin.

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2019-07-12, 15:35

Homine.Sardu wrote:Simply comparing them with Latin.

That's not what this thread is for:
Ciarán12 wrote:The idea is for this thread to be along the lines of the "True False Friends" thread, but for actual cognates. Any that you find strange, unexpected or interesting are welcome, but only actual cognates please, no folk etymologies, coincidences or crack-pot theories.

Maybe you could post them to the Random Language Thread?

There also used to be a thread for chance resemblances between languages where the meaning was the same but I can't remember what it was called.
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Re: Cognates

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-12, 16:39

(et) kava program, scheme, layout
(en) show (Proto-Germanic *skawwōną, *skawwa-)

(et) kube groin
(en) hip (Proto-Germanic *hupiz)

(et) kade envious
(en) hate (Proto-Germanic *hataz, *hat-)

(et) härras sad, sorrowful, sentimental
(en) hard difficult (Proto-Germanic *harduz)

(et) kõlbama to fit, to serve
(en) help (Proto-Germanic *χelpan-, Proto-Indo-European *ḱelp-)

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Re: Cognates

Postby Linguaphile » 2019-07-12, 21:39

linguoboy wrote:Maybe you could post them to the Random Language Thread?

There also used to be a thread for chance resemblances between languages where the meaning was the same but I can't remember what it was called.

Seriously? Or are you being sarcastic here? Just four days ago we were discussing the set of three cognate/false friend threads and the fact that you often tell people they've posted in the wrong place, frequently redirecting people to the Multilingual False Friends thread (by name), so it's bizarre that today (when a user you had criticized for commenting on cognates in the thread that didn't have to be cognates, now posts in the thread that is meant for cognates, probably trying to do what you'd asked!) you not only say this is the wrong one too, but also say that you don't remember the name of the Multilingual False Friends thread. I mean, we discussed it at length a few days ago. You even mentioned it by name here this week. I feel like you're trolling us now.

I still don't understand why you don't just point out the attested etymology (or lack of one, depending on the thread and the situation) when you have it, as part of a discussion, instead of telling people they should post elsewhere. In this case I think Homine.Sardu did think all of his words were cognates (therefore, was posting in the right place as far as he knew) and to be fair, at least half of them are cognates and appropriate here. Your etymological info about the other half was useful. Why not just leave it at that instead of saying "that's not what this thread is for" etc?
It's not like people can move their own posts to a different thread after you have replied telling them where you think they should have posted it. If I were a new user here and saw so many previous comments basically saying "you shouldn't have posted this", I would hesitate to post at all. Even as a user who has been posting here for quite a while, I'm getting really close.

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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-07-13, 3:18

Linguaphile wrote:Seriously? Or are you being sarcastic here?

He's being sarcastic.
I still don't understand why you don't just point out the attested etymology (or lack of one, depending on the thread and the situation) when you have it, as part of a discussion, instead of telling people they should post elsewhere. In this case I think Homine.Sardu did think all of his words were cognates (therefore, was posting in the right place as far as he knew) and to be fair, at least half of them are cognates and appropriate here. Your etymological info about the other half was useful. Why not just leave it at that instead of saying "that's not what this thread is for" etc?

Because that's not what it was created for and otherwise, it just gets really cluttered and disorganized.

There used to be only one thread, namely "multilingual false friends." Most of the false friends listed there are not likely to cause confusion in real life. Then someone who was specifically interested in false friends that do cause confusion in real life started a thread for that called "true false friends." Later, someone else started this thread because they were specifically interested in cognates. You may not care that much about the difference. I don't care that much about the difference myself! But I share this forum with some people who do, so I respect that that's just how it is because I don't see why it should be a big deal either way. There are bigger problems in life than false friends vs. cognates. :P
It's not like people can move their own posts to a different thread after you have replied telling them where you think they should have posted it.

No, but they can learn from that experience what people generally post here and what will be more or less well-received. Isn't that generally how we all learn to get along with a specific group of people? Try something, get feedback, "whoops, that didn't go over so well," try something else?
If I were a new user here and saw so many previous comments basically saying "you shouldn't have posted this", I would hesitate to post at all. Even as a user who has been posting here for quite a while, I'm getting really close.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but I don't think anyone's trying to throw anyone off the forum or anything like that. But Homine.Sardu is not that new, and he's been told several times over the course of a few years that he's misunderstanding what a cognate is, but this doesn't seem to have changed. I'm willing to try to tell him what it is if he's interested, but I'm not sure he even cares. There's a lovely little thread over here that would be right up his alley but gets no love for whatever reason.

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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2019-07-15, 14:34

vijayjohn wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Seriously? Or are you being sarcastic here?

He's being sarcastic.

For the record, I wasn't. There's not really a dedicated thread for "chance resemblances that suggest cognation to me but which I haven't investigated the etymologies of". Feel free to start one, though.

vijayjohn wrote:Because that's not what it was created for and otherwise, it just gets really cluttered and disorganized.

Yeah, if Ciarán hadn't been so explicit in stating the criteria at the outset, I might feel differently. But he created this thread with a very definite purpose in mind--one that wasn't being adequately addressed by other threads--and I don't understand why it should be difficult for the rest of the community here to respect that.

I propose that any further discussion take place in a thread in the Unilang - Information, Input, and Questions forum. Again, this is just the suggestion of a member with no administrative duties, so anyone is free to disregard it and keep further derailing this thread from its stated purpose.
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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2019-07-23, 17:23

For some reason, I'd always thought that Catalan seny "good sense" was derived from Latin signum "sign". I don't know of any other language exhibiting this sort of semantic development, but it doesn't seem that much of a stretch. According to the GREC dictionary, however, the source is Proto-Germanic *sinnaz, making it a true cognate of modern Standard German Sinn "sense, mind". Even odder, Spanish sien "temple [of the head]" is thought to derive from the same root.

I'd also thought that German Segen "blessing" had a Proto-Germanic origin. I couldn't tell you what it was, but it seemed perfectly at home with Urgermanisch words like Regen "rain", legen "lay", and gegen "against". Now I learn that it represents a reflex of Latin signum. There is a modern Catalan descendant, too, and it does take the form seny, but the meaning is rather unexpectedly "large bell" (i.e. of the sort hung in a belfry or bell tower).

In summary:

(ca) seny good sense
(de) Sinn sense, mind
(es) sien temple [of the head]

(ca) seny large bell
(de) Segen blessing
(es) sino destiny
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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-08-09, 5:22

Kurmanji (ku) perwa - fear, hesitation, concern
Persian (fa) پروا parvâ - fear, anxiety, care
Hindi (hi) परवाह [pəɾˈʋah] - care, heed, notice
Tamil (ta) பரவா paravā, பர்வா parvā - importance, moment
(பரவாயில்லை paravāyillai - it doesn't matter)

The interesting thing about this for me is not only that this word somehow managed to make it all the way down to Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka but also the fact that it doesn't exist in Malayalam at all even though பரவாயில்லை is a very common expression in Tamil. Some Malayalees recognize it but don't actually say it themselves.
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Re: Cognates

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-10-09, 17:13

This example isn't exactly what I had im mind originally for this thread, but I think it fits better here than in other threads:

(pt-br) oxalá - "God willing" ( from (ar) "'in sha' allah", cognate with (es) ojalá)
(pt-br) oxalá - Name of an Orixá (a god of the Candomblé religion), from (yo) Òrìsànlá)

I find it a strange coincidence that they are in fact not cognates, given their religious meanings.
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Re: Cognates

Postby linguoboy » 2019-10-09, 17:50

Ciarán12 wrote:(pt-br) oxalá - "God willing" ( from (ar) "'in sha' allah", cognate with (es) ojalá)
(pt-br) oxalá - Name of an Orixá (a god of the Candomblé religion), from (yo) Òrìsànlá)

I find it a strange coincidence that they are in fact not cognates, given they're religious meanings.

I suspect an element of folk etymology at work here.
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Re: Cognates

Postby Osias » 2019-10-10, 1:23

Why?
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Re: Cognates

Postby Saim » 2019-10-13, 13:37

(sh) razàbirati (razàbirem)
To discern, make out.

(bg) разбирам [razbíram]
(mk) разбира [razbira]
To understand.

I finally understand where the Bulgarians and Macedonians got this from. It always seemed weird to me because I associated it with brȁti (bèrem) - to take.

Osias wrote:Why?


I presume Linguoboy means that he think that the erroneous idea that oxalá and Òrìsànlá share etymology or are related in some way made the Brazilian descendent of Òrìsànlá move closer to the pronunciation of oxalá.

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Re: Cognates

Postby Osias » 2019-10-13, 14:03

Thanks.
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Re: Cognates

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-10-14, 1:23

I don't think there is folk etymology going on there because Oxalá is limited neither to Portuguese nor to Candomblé. Practitioners of Santería also call him Oxalá in Spanish.

EDIT: These:

Zulu (zu) isikhathi - time, clock; for a while
inkathi - time, age, era, period, epoch, season, (grammar) tense
umkathi - space, outer space, gap, intervening distance, universe, interval, time period, duration

are apparently all from this:

Swahili (sw) wakati - time

which is from this:

Arabic (ar) وقت waqt - time

How did that get into Zulu from Swahili? :shock:


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