Wanderlust support group 5

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Lur
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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Lur » 2018-07-08, 15:05

My reply confused east with west so :lol: :lol:
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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-09, 3:22

Lur wrote:How about Danish, maybe that one too, unless I'm mistaken about the sociolinguistic situation in Greenland.

That's true. Danish is probably one, too.
vijayjohn wrote:That's because a) there are WAY more resources for NAILs than for CSAILs

You mean only in English or counting Spanish and Portuguese resources? Because I've seen people complain resources in English were more scarce but I don't have that issue

Counting Spanish and Portuguese resources. A few of my friends from grad school do fieldwork in Oaxaca, and one of them has a pretty large collection of books (in various languages) but still says there's a lot more available for NAILs than for CSAILs. IIRC it's hard enough even to find a book for K'iche' whereas for NAILs there are courses with videos and multimedia exercises and shit (also the Latin American-style caste system doesn't exist up north, though I'm not sure how relevant that is exactly).

I might have exaggerated, though. :silly: I will admit, even with all that, it's still plenty hard to find things for NAILs, too. :doggy:

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-09, 5:56

vijayjohn wrote:IIRC it's hard enough even to find a book for K'iche'
WorldCat lists almost 700 (217 of which are in Spanish and 104 in English, the others in other languages, including in K'iche' itself.)
vijayjohn wrote:whereas for NAILs there are courses with videos and multimedia exercises
Chqe’tamaj le qach’ab’al K’iche’.

vijayjohn wrote:a) there are WAY more resources for NAILs than for CSAILs and b) Navajo is one of the most widely spoken NAILs there is.
Depends on where you look and which materials you include. Per WorldCat, Quechua and Nahuatl each have more resources than Navajo, and even Mixtec and Zapotec aren't far behind. Maya languages as a group also have more resources than Navajo, although individual Maya languages like K'iche' do not.
Having said that, I totally agree that there aren't that many high-quality, easy-to-obtain materials for learning any of these languages. I was fortunate that the university I went to had a fairly good collection of them in its library.

Also, on a related but different note, Mexico has many textbooks in indigenous languages available online. But they are texts meant for speakers of those languages, not lessons for learning the language. Still fun to look at though, and the first-grade books have quite a few diagrams and pictures which make it easier to learn some words from them.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Lur » 2018-07-09, 7:24

Yeah I love Mayan languages but the atomization into many languages makes picking one with enough resources and/or speakers confusing.

I think I particularly like their phonology and that their easier than the complete insanity of other families over there (Mixe-Zoquean, Oto-Manguean... :para: )
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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-09, 18:51

Linguaphile wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:IIRC it's hard enough even to find a book for K'iche'
WorldCat lists almost 700 (217 of which are in Spanish and 104 in English, the others in other languages, including in K'iche' itself.)

Most of those are in K'iche' from what I can tell and don't seem terribly useful for people trying to learn it, and most of the others seem to be more about cultural overviews than linguistic information. Some of them are about other Mayan languages, and some of them are about Quechua.
vijayjohn wrote:whereas for NAILs there are courses with videos and multimedia exercises
Chqe’tamaj le qach’ab’al K’iche’.

I think that was created - by our colleagues at the same university - precisely because such courses don't exist otherwise, and even this one seems to have videos only for a few lessons and no multimedia exercises.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-09, 19:18

vijayjohn wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:IIRC it's hard enough even to find a book for K'iche'
WorldCat lists almost 700 (217 of which are in Spanish and 104 in English, the others in other languages, including in K'iche' itself.)

Most of those are in K'iche' from what I can tell and don't seem terribly useful for people trying to learn it, and most of the others seem to be more about cultural overviews than linguistic information.
Yes, but the same is true for languages of North America, too, and most have some language information; they're just not exclusively language texts.
Basic K'ichee' grammar by James L Mondloch looks interesting, as does Spoken Quiché (Maya) by Stanley A Wick and Remigio Cochojil Gonzáles.
vijayjohn wrote:some of them are about Quechua.
:rotfl: But only one as far as I could tell (Gramática quichua).

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Lur » 2018-07-10, 8:58

Do you think any Mayan language at all have enough learning resources? Maybe I should betray my impulses and do Nahuatl :lol:

I'll add to the wanderlust: Korean
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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-10, 14:33

Lur wrote:Do you think any Mayan language at all have enough learning resources?

It depends on what you mean by "enough." Enough that you can reach advanced fluency using them? No. Enough that they shouldn't need to make any new resources? No!
Enough that you can get a general overview of the language and learn some vocabulary? Yes.
I was thinking about studying K'ichee'. Kaqchikel also looks interesting, mainly because the text ¿La ütz awäch? looks pretty good. If I have time (which is a big if) I'd probably go through ¿La ütz awäch? for Kaqchikel and then shift focus to K'ichee' with the online resource that has been mentioned and some grammars I have. I like to see how languages in a family related to each other (similarities and differences) so getting an overview of one and then shifting to another works well for that. Plus, learning about one through a really good resource gives a good foundation that makes it easier to understand what is meant when learning a related one whose resources aren't quite as top-notch. Therefore unless you have a specific population you intend to communicate with, I think shifting between related varieties a bit works just fine.
But I have good materials right here for about five or six other (non-Maya) languages that I haven't had time to go through either, so it's probably not going to happen. I'll probably end up focusing on a couple of books I have about Maya linguistics instead of trying to actually learn one now.
As for "enough" learning resources, it really depends both on what your goals are and which resources are available to you where you are.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Lur » 2018-07-10, 15:43

To be honest, I don't know what goals I'm supposed to have while living on Europe when it comes to those languages :(

(it is generally at this point that my brain goes in circles about feeling a cultural inferiority complex and about not being from anywhere and about speaking two languages. But my brain is dumb)
Geurea dena lapurtzen uzteagatik, geure izaerari uko egiteagatik.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-10, 20:34

Lur wrote:To be honest, I don't know what goals I'm supposed to have while living on Europe when it comes to those languages :(

(it is generally at this point that my brain goes in circles about feeling a cultural inferiority complex and about not being from anywhere and about speaking two languages. But my brain is dumb)

I think your brain is probably quite a bit smarter than you give it credit for, Lur. And two languages is twice as many as a lot of people I know, plus you are extremely fluent in both of them and interested in others, which puts you ahead of even more people in terms of number of languages (remember: the people on this forum are not representative of the world in general). In the real world most people I know would be very impressed by your language ability.
As for goals, not having a specific goal can actually be a good thing; if you'd told me your goal was to be able to communicate with people in a particular place that would be a lot more challenging (both in terms of finding materials for the specific language, and reaching the goal in a timely manner), but since that's not the case, you can learn as much or as little as you want, in whichever language(s) you choose. Since you know both Spanish and English, that already gives you a little bit of an advantage in terms of finding materials for Mayan or other Mesoamerican languages. But as for actually learning them, that's only if it's something you would really like to do, just for yourself. I don't know Mayan language speakers at the moment either so the fact that I'm in North America rather than Europe really makes no difference in terms of"goals "while living in Europe" that you mentioned. It's just something interesting to me.
I did start reading one of my Maya linguistic books this morning and was amused by this description in the introduction: "El castellano también ha tomado palabras de los idiomas mayas, las cuales son de uso muy regular. Por ejemplo, las palabras sute (de su't), macuy (de majk'uy), tun (de tuun), güicoy (de ik'oy), huracán (de jun raqan) son comunes." Supongo que sí son de uso muy regular en las regiones mayas de Guatemala, pero yo tenía que buscar macuy y güicoy en el diccionario, y (salvo que tengan otros significados que yo desconozca) sute y tun refieren solamente a aspectos de la cultura maya (de vestimenta tradicional y del calendario antiguo). Para mí solamente huracán es "de uso muy regular". But in part that's why the languages are interesting to me. It's possible to learn a lot of history and culture in the process and even some Spanish as well. :wink:

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Lur » 2018-07-10, 21:26

Mmmh. Regarding location, I did notice today that I don't think I've ever met anyone in Madrid whose language is other than Spanish (which maybe it's weird). So I imagine I probably have to think on learning leaving aside the idea of talking to people face to face I guess.

Current wanderlusts: Mandarin, Korean, Mari, Northern Dené, Southern Dené (duh), Cree/innu/naskapi/etc, a bit of Nahuatl :lol:
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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Antea » 2018-07-11, 14:42

Wanderlusting for Urdu :roll:

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-11, 17:51

I've been meaning to reply to this for a few days:
Linguaphile wrote:Basic K'ichee' grammar by James L Mondloch looks interesting, as does Spoken Quiché (Maya) by Stanley A Wick and Remigio Cochojil Gonzáles.

I'm happy to see that Mondloch's text is back in print as a revised edition. I might pick up a copy shortly. Has anyone been able to find out if the Wick and Gonzáles text is still available anywhere?

Linguaphile wrote:I was thinking about studying K'ichee'. Kaqchikel also looks interesting, mainly because the text ¿La ütz awäch? looks pretty good. If I have time (which is a big if) I'd probably go through ¿La ütz awäch? for Kaqchikel and then shift focus to K'ichee' with the online resource that has been mentioned and some grammars I have.

I've had very similar thoughts, only the other way around. :P
Given that ¿La ütz awäch? doesn't come with audio, I'm tempted to start with the online K'iche' course.

While we're on the subject of Central American languages, does anyone have any experience with these texts for Zapotec?

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-11, 22:24

księżycowy wrote:I'm happy to see that Mondloch's text is back in print as a revised edition. I might pick up a copy shortly. Has anyone been able to find out if the Wick and Gonzáles text is still available anywhere?
Not really. I looked it up on Amazon before I posted earlier, and they had it (or I thought they did), but now it's listed as unavailable there. (LOL - did any of you buy it?)
księżycowy wrote:Given that ¿La ütz awäch? doesn't come with audio, I'm tempted to start with the online K'iche' course.
That's a good point. That might be a better idea. I was only thinking of starting with the book because it's the only good Kaqchikel material I have; I was thinking I'd do that and then shift focus to my K'iche' stuff. ¿La ütz awäch? looks like a good intro, but so does the online course. And there's really no reason not to start with K'iche', then go to Kaqchikel, then back to K'iche' - if I even get that far. (Which I probably won't anyway. I have had some of these books since they were first published in the nineties and although I've looked at bits and pieces off and on I have yet to really study them in any sort of systematic way.)
This week I did start reading Los Idiomas Mayas de Guatemala published by Editorial Cholsamaj. It's possible I've read it before, so I may be re-reading it.
księżycowy wrote:While we're on the subject of Central American languages, does anyone have any experience with these texts for Zapotec?
I have never heard of that one. If you find out more about it and it looks good, please let us know!

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-11, 23:12

Linguaphile wrote:Not really. I looked it up on Amazon before I posted earlier, and they had it (or I thought they did), but now it's listed as unavailable there. (LOL - did any of you buy it?)

I can safely say I'm not the culprit.
I happened to see a used copy of the second volume on Amazon a day or two ago.

księżycowy wrote:That's a good point. That might be a better idea. I was only thinking of starting with the book because it's the only good Kaqchikel material I have; I was thinking I'd do that and then shift focus to my K'iche' stuff. ¿La ütz awäch? looks like a good intro, but so does the online course. And there's really no reason not to start with K'iche', then go to Kaqchikel, then back to K'iche' - if I even get that far. (Which I probably won't anyway. I have had some of these books since they were first published in the nineties and although I've looked at bits and pieces off and on I have yet to really study them in any sort of systematic way.)

Do it! We can start a Mayan study group! :yep:

I have never heard of that one. If you find out more about it and it looks good, please let us know!

I might buy it in a couple weeks, just to see. :P

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-11, 23:47

księżycowy wrote:Do it! We can start a Mayan study group! :yep:

Kojsamäj! Kojsamäj junan!

(Let's get to work! Let's work together!) Kaqchikel

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-11, 23:53

I was sure you wouldn't take the bait. :P

But what the hell, I'm in.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-12, 0:07

:rotfl:
I'm totally fine with it either way. I probably really will go through some of the lessons. But there are a million other things I probably should be doing, and usually I just study on my own (I've never been part of a study group here*), so.... if you want to, sure, let's try it. If not, sure, let's not. :P

*and since I study languages like this just for fun, I'm not used to having to do it on any sort of timeline or whatever; I might do several lessons in one day and then nothing for several weeks other than a little review. That's really my routine. Even when you see me posting on the Uralic board daily, as often as not it's probably stuff I typed up in one day and then post a bit at a time for the next couple of weeks. LOL.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-12, 0:19

I keep saying this, but maybe in a few months. I'd hate to have barely done anything for German or Japanese (my two main focuses ATM), and have all but left several other study groups to just turn around and join another (regardless of how long I stayed). I've done enough damage for a while. :whistle:

There are a few really important things I should be doing (including two I just mentioned :P ), but I've been lazy lately. :lol:

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Re: Wanderlust support group 5

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-07-12, 0:27

Makes sense.


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