Wanderlust support group 4

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Vlürch
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Vlürch » 2017-07-16, 22:10

vijayjohn wrote:
OldBoring wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
OldBoring wrote:you can still wash your hands in the "toilet".

Heheh.

A thing that happens between British and American English speakers.
British: "I found your shirt in the toilet!"
American: "Thanks, but if you found it in the toilet, I don't want it anymore".

This reminds me of how my dad says that Air India used to make announcements on their planes in both English and Hindi, but before they took off, you could tell that the Hindi announcements were much longer than the English ones. He says that's because in Hindi, they were also saying things like "don't try to wash your clothes in the toilet bowl." :lol:

When I was new to chatting with people online, I used to always tell everyone when I went to the toilet. I usually said something like "brb going in the toilet", which a lot of people found hilarious and engrishy. Of course, this was probably because most of the people I was talking to were American, but I'm still not sure if it was actually correct even in non-American English; I've said "to the toilet" ever since, but I guess it's technically not wrong to say "in the toilet"? On the other hand, the only results I found on Google for "going in the house" are related to dogs or cats pissing or shitting indoors, so maybe saying "going in the toilet" would imply pissing or shitting in the toilet... which is what toilets are for, but... like... I'm confused.

PS: is the suffix -ee considered productive? Like, could you say confusee to mean someone who is confused without confusing people?

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-16, 23:40

Vlürch wrote:I've said "to the toilet" ever since, but I guess it's technically not wrong to say "in the toilet"?

"In the toilet" makes it sound to me like you're jumping into the toilet bowl or something.
PS: is the suffix -ee considered productive? Like, could you say confusee to mean someone who is confused without confusing people?

I would say no.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-07-17, 3:05

vijayjohn wrote:
Vlürch wrote:I've said "to the toilet" ever since, but I guess it's technically not wrong to say "in the toilet"?

"In the toilet" makes it sound to me like you're jumping into the toilet bowl or something.

I concur!

vijayjohn wrote:
PS: is the suffix -ee considered productive? Like, could you say confusee to mean someone who is confused without confusing people?

I would say no.

I'm not sure what productive means in this case, but in my experience the suffix -ee is used in contrast to the suffix -er/or to distinguish the one who does an action and the one who receives an action. For example, I've seen tutor, tutee.

So if I ever saw confusee (which I've never seen), I would assume it's a new slang term that refers to someone who gets confused, and in particular, contrasted against a confuser - someone who intentionally confuses people. For example, I could picture a review of a magician's show going something like this:

I went to see Bizarro last night. He calls himself The Great Confusor. His blend of trickery and slight of hand turned the whole audience into his confusees.
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-17, 3:48

dEhiN wrote:I'm not sure what productive means in this case

If a morpheme is productive, that means native speakers can use it frequently to create new words. I know native speakers can do this to some extent, but I don't know whether we can do it all that often.
but in my experience the suffix -ee is used in contrast to the suffix -er/or to distinguish the one who does an action and the one who receives an action. For example, I've seen tutor, tutee.

Really? I've never seen tutee. But apparently, it's in the Oxford English Dictionary, so...

Now I wonder how that's pronounced.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-07-17, 6:58

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I'm not sure what productive means in this case

If a morpheme is productive, that means native speakers can use it frequently to create new words. I know native speakers can do this to some extent, but I don't know whether we can do it all that often.

Ok, thanks. And yeah then I would agree that -ee isn't productive.

Now I wonder how that's pronounced.

From what I say and what I've heard, it's basically however you would normally pronounce "tutor" but with the /ə˞/ ending replaced with /i/. I tend to usually say /tu/ instead of /tju/ so you have /tutə˞/ and /tuti/.
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-17, 7:08

So it rhymes with beauty, cutie, and duty, and perhaps also fruity, booty, and pootie, and I guess for me also broody, doody, Judy, and moody? :P

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby kevin » 2017-07-17, 7:45

Not /tju'ti:/? I always thought the -ee ending was stressed. :hmm:

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Serafín » 2017-07-17, 15:15

It is stressed. /tuˈti/ (or /tjuːˈtiː/ if you're a Brit).

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-17, 15:34

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I'm not sure what productive means in this case

If a morpheme is productive, that means native speakers can use it frequently to create new words. I know native speakers can do this to some extent, but I don't know whether we can do it all that often.

Obviously there's a cline here. I would only term an ending "unproductive" if it's all the way at the far end of productivity. Now, language being what it is, it's hard to say "never", but if any new abstract nouns have been derived from verbs or adjectives by means of the suffix -th in the last couple centuries, then I sure as hell am not aware of them. By contrast, I hear new nouns (including nonce coinages) in -ee frequently.
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-07-17, 15:40

kevin wrote:Not /tju'ti:/? I always thought the -ee ending was stressed. :hmm:

I guess it is stressed? I don't think I personally stress the second syllable, but I've heard others do so. I also am not in the habit of denoting stress in phonemic transcriptions.
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-18, 0:45

dEhiN wrote:
kevin wrote:Not /tju'ti:/? I always thought the -ee ending was stressed. :hmm:

I guess it is stressed? I don't think I personally stress the second syllable, but I've heard others do so.

It's speaker variation. Some people stress it on the first syllable; some stress it on the second. :)

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby kevin » 2017-07-18, 8:29

dEhiN wrote:I guess it is stressed? I don't think I personally stress the second syllable, but I've heard others do so. I also am not in the habit of denoting stress in phonemic transcriptions.

Nothing wrong with your transcription. What really made me wonder was Vijay's comment that it rhymes with "beauty" etc. which seemed to imply the opposite. Unless, of course, he stresses the second syllable there, too...

vijayjohn wrote:It's speaker variation. Some people stress it on the first syllable; some stress it on the second. :)

...but this explanation seems a bit less unlikely than assuming that you say "beautee". ;)

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-18, 12:23

kevin wrote:
dEhiN wrote:I guess it is stressed? I don't think I personally stress the second syllable, but I've heard others do so. I also am not in the habit of denoting stress in phonemic transcriptions.

Nothing wrong with your transcription. What really made me wonder was Vijay's comment that it rhymes with "beauty" etc. which seemed to imply the opposite.

Yes, I believe at this point that he puts the stress on the first syllable, not the second. I have heard some people do that at least. :)

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Michael » 2017-07-18, 20:25

Started listening to some old Clannad albums, so now I'm wanderlusting Goidelic again. Also, Anglo-Saxon runes (Fuþårc). I'm gonna hit up Memrise.
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“Iċ eom māra þonne þes middanġeard; lǣssa þonne håndwyrm; leohtre þonne mōna; swiftre þonne sunne.”

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-19, 0:57

What's with the use of å?

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Michael » 2017-07-19, 1:21

vijayjohn wrote:What's with the use of å?

I've discovered that it can have a useful purpose in Classical Germanic just like it has in the Scandinavian languages (as well as in a certain dialect of Frisian, AFAIK): It's to denote the possibility of [ɑ] to be pronounced as [ɔ], depending on dialect. This is represented as e.g. stǫndan (standan) in traditional grammars, but I'd like to break from tradition just this once. :P (You also have <ę>, which I believe is analogous to <ä> in Modern Germanic.)
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“Iċ eom māra þonne þes middanġeard; lǣssa þonne håndwyrm; leohtre þonne mōna; swiftre þonne sunne.”

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby eskandar » 2017-07-19, 7:12

Wanderlusting Italian. When I tell myself I'm going to study it, I never get around to it. Now that I've decided I'm not going to study it and even took it off my TAC, I'm craving it. Thinking of maybe downloading the Michel Thomas method Italian course - I really only want to learn to read and don't care much about speaking, but I love the Michel Thomas method and it's convenient for when I'm commuting.

I always had the impression that Italy was one of the European countries where the standard language is the weakest; compared to France, for example, where nearly everyone speaks standard French (albeit with some regional accents which are ultimately not that divergent), I thought Italians were more likely to speak Sicilian, Venetian, Neopolitan, etc. at home. However, an Italian friend told me that the younger generation in Italy speaks standard Italian as a mother tongue and that the regional languages are a phenomenon primarily of the older generations. I took it with a grain of salt, being a sample size of one, but... What say you, Italophones of Unilang?
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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby Saim » 2017-07-19, 8:10

From what I've heard it depends on the region. Sicilian and Neapolitan, and to a lesser extent Venetian, are more vibrant than most of the other languages of Italy. However, among younger middle-class people you'll find people who are functionally monolingual in Italian (or at least Italian-dominant bilinguals) even in the Neapolitan-speaking areas. Where was your Italian friend from?

Depending on your definition of "standard language", there's also the issue of regional Italian. Standard French is AFAIK displacing even regional accents (not just the traditional vernacular languages), whereas in Italy regional Italian is much more widely used. Notably Roman speech (which is normally classified as a variety of Italian/the Tuscan diasystem rather than being an independent form of Romance like Neapolitan or Lombard) has quite a lot of media presence as far as I can tell.

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-07-19, 9:12

eskandar wrote:I always had the impression that Italy was one of the European countries where the standard language is the weakest; compared to France, for example, where nearly everyone speaks standard French (albeit with some regional accents which are ultimately not that divergent), I thought Italians were more likely to speak Sicilian, Venetian, Neopolitan, etc. at home. However, an Italian friend told me that the younger generation in Italy speaks standard Italian as a mother tongue and that the regional languages are a phenomenon primarily of the older generations. I took it with a grain of salt, being a sample size of one, but... What say you, Italophones of Unilang?


According to a 2012 ISTAT (the national institute of statistics) report, the percentage of people between 18 and 74 who mainly speak Italian is:

53.1% with their family
56.4% with friends
84.8% with strangers

The percentage of people who mainly speak their dialect* is:

9% with their family
9% with friends
1.8% with strangers

The rate of people mainly speaking Italian (or Italian and the dialect with the same frequency) has been constantly soaring since 1995.

Younger people tend to use Italian more than older people do, in particular:

60.7% of people between 18 and 24
41.6% of people between 65 and 74

Women tend to use Italian more than men both within the family (55.2% against 51% of men) and with friends (60.9% against 51.7% of men).

The dialect is prevalent among people with lower education (24.3% of people who only have primary education against 1.7% of people with a university degree).

The prevalent use of Italian is more widespread in Central Italy and in the North-West. In Central Italy, Italian is used as the primary language by 69.5% of the population (against 38.8% of the South + Sardinia). 44.7% of the people in the South + Sardinia speak both Italian and the dialect with the same frequency.

http://www.istat.it/it/archivio/136496

*I'm using the Italian terminology whereby "dialect" can also mean "regional language".

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Re: Wanderlust support group 4

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-19, 14:53

Yeah, I always had the impression that Italy was fairly similar to Germany in this regard. Both countries have musical acts that perform primarily in dialect, for instance.

(Interesting that in both cases dialects are strongest in the South even though Germany doesn't have the same North/South economic divide as Italy.)
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