gay - hamjens baz?

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poppy
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gay - hamjens baz?

Postby poppy » 2007-10-09, 19:56

I thought hamjensbaz is the right word to say gay as in homosexual, but on the BBC they were talking about hamjens gara. It seems like hamjens baz is seen as derogatory by some, although it's not marked as such in my dictionary. So which would be the better word to use?

I also heard another word for a gay person- "eva khahaar". Is that impolite as well?

thanks :)

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-10-10, 5:07

Being gay, I've asked gay Iranians which form they prefer, and it's always been hamjens gerâ. I've never heard a gay Iranian refer to himself/herself as hamjenz bâz. Hamjenz gerâ also feels kinder to my ears as well...

Never heard "eva khâhar" before...but it certainly sounds derogatory. :shock:
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Postby poppy » 2007-10-10, 13:44

thanks :) , so what does the "gerâ" part actually mean?

and does "Hamjenz gerâ" include women as well?

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-10-10, 14:23

poppy wrote:thanks :) , so what does the "gerâ" part actually mean?

and does "Hamjenz gerâ" include women as well?


It's actually a suffix that means something like "er" or "-person". So hamjenz gerâ might translate as well...'same sex-er'/'same sex person'. I haven't heard lesbians use it, but I don't know any Persian lesbians, so...perhaps someone can share their experience. [BTW, though, I have seen it in written form applied to lesbians...I just don't know about in actual practice.]
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Postby ego » 2007-10-10, 16:05

Weird, the Iranians have a word for "gay"? I thought there were no gays in Iran :lol:

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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby alijsh » 2007-10-10, 16:19

<b>hamjensbâz</b> -> <b>ham</b>: homo (as you see, they're cognate :wink:); <b>jens</b>: sex (cognate with genus :wink:); <b>bâz</b>: present stem of <b>bâxtan</b>: to play, to engage onself in. So it means: someone who practices (engaged in) homosexuality

<b>hamjensga/erâ</b> -> <b>ga/erâ</b>: present stem of <b>ga/erâyidan</b>: to be inclined, to have a tendency. So it means: someone who has a tendency toward homosexuality.

<b>hamjensbâz</b> is not a derogatory word. it is used in newspapers, etc. (I mean in bookish Persian). <b>hamjensgarâ</b> is more formal but anyway it's not used in spoken Persian.

bâz is a productive suffix in colloquial Persian. Look at these words:

<b>baccebâz</b> - pederast
<b>zanbâz</b> - a man who has / is inclined to have relationship with several women / girls <b><i>(what do you say in English? Don Juan?)</i></b>
<b>doxtarbâz</b> - a boy who has / is inclined to have relationship with several girls (one who has several girlfriends) <b><i>(what do you say in English?)</i></b>
<b>pesarbâz</b> - ditto but for a girl <b><i>(what do you say in English?)</i></b>

If you add -i you get the nominal form e.g. baccebâzi means pederasty.

I think the English for <b>evâ xâhar</b> is "sissy". <b>evâ xâhar</b> means "a boy who behaves in a girlish manner". one who is <b>evâ xâhar</b> is not necessarily a homosexual. he just behaves in a girlish manner, may dress like a girl, may clean his eyebrows (it's taboo in our culture even though many of actors do it), may use feminin cosmetics (rouge, etc.), etc. In short, one who lacks stereotypically masculine qualities. evâ xâhar, literally means "oh, sister". evâ is an exclamatory word used by women.

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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby eskandar » 2007-10-10, 17:43

alijsh wrote:may clean his eyebrows (it's taboo in our culture even though many of actors do it)


Are there any expressions related to this? I ask because many of my co-workers are Iranian women and they all want to thread my unibrow :lol: I made up an expression of my own-- "bi abru, bi âb-e ru!"

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-10-10, 18:39

ego wrote:Weird, the Iranians have a word for "gay"? I thought there were no gays in Iran :lol:


Yeah....Ahmadinezhad was out of the loop on this one, I think. ;)


Alijsh wrote:(1)zanbâz - a man who has / is inclined to have relationship with several women / girls (what do you say in English? Don Juan?)
(2)doxtarbâz - a boy who has / is inclined to have relationship with several girls (one who has several girlfriends) (what do you say in English?)
(3)pesarbâz - ditto but for a girl (what do you say in English?)


(1) There are a few words. Womanizer is the most neutral one. Casanova is another that's common. Other common expressions, but ones that you wouldn't want to say in front of your grandmother are: gigolo, ladies' man (this one isn't bad if you use it with a gay guy and his girl friends:P), Romeo or skirt chaser. :lol: I've never heard Don Juan used like that, but perhaps the Brits do it.

(2) Player(boy)/playboy or loverboy. People will often talk about 'the playboy lifestyle', which is marked by 'playing' tons of girls...usually sexually.

(3) We don't using any words that can portray women being with many guys as a good thing...we have very negative terms for this, but we might toss them around as a joke if a girl can't stick with her boyfriend or something. Anyway, whore/ho, skank, tramp, lady of the evening and my personal favourite 'the village bicycle' [as in everyone gets their turn to ride her...](:haha:) are some equivalents you might come across. The longer ones are slightly more subtle and less offensive.
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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby poppy » 2007-10-10, 19:38

thanks for the help, my dears :D

(I think Americans probably don't say "my dears", can anyone confirm this?)

I have been trying to think of positive translations for "pesarbâz", I suppose "vixen" is not too bad although not complimentary.

eskandar wrote:
alijsh wrote:may clean his eyebrows (it's taboo in our culture even though many of actors do it)


Are there any expressions related to this? I ask because many of my co-workers are Iranian women and they all want to thread my unibrow :lol: I made up an expression of my own-- "bi abru, bi âb-e ru!"


oh no, steer clear of threading, I think waxing or plucking would be better. but unibrows can be very charming you know lol!

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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby Sisyphe » 2007-10-10, 20:46

poppy wrote:(I think Americans probably don't say "my dears", can anyone confirm this?)


No, we don't say that. It sounds cute though. :lol:

Poppy wrote:I have been trying to think of positive translations for "pesarbâz", I suppose "vixen" is not too bad although not complimentary.


I've only seen 'vixen' written; never actually heard it. I suppose it's an ok theoretical term...But we don't use words with ok connotations for pesarbâz.
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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby poppy » 2007-10-10, 22:56

Sisyphe wrote:
poppy wrote:(I think Americans probably don't say "my dears", can anyone confirm this?)


No, we don't say that. It sounds cute though. :lol:



aaah, that's what I suspected, it's quite usual to call anyone "dear", "love", "darling", "my love", "sweetheart" and so on in the UK, anywhere, in a shop or a bank or anywhere :D

In the South West of England, "my lover" is actually a way of addressing anyone, man or woman! This article discusses it a little:http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1018831,00.html

That is also the case in Yorkshire, where the very widespread male-to-male use of 'love' is the best way of calming down spiky "I'm not your love" women visitors from (usually) the South. A quick bus ride into Leeds or a call at the local greengrocer/ironmonger/newsagent for a bit of male 'love'-ing makes the point without triggering a huge linguistic row.


I always feel that in American culture men are a bit more wary of being seen as feminine, so don't do things such as wearing pink shirts and crossing their legs which is normal in England, but I'm not sure.

please could someone tell me what the threading is called in Persian as well, thanks!

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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby roshanak » 2007-10-11, 3:23

alijsh wrote:<b>baccebâz</b> - pederast


:o I've never heard of a pederast - I had to look it up in the dictionary to check that you didn't mean paedophile.

sisyphe wrote: I've only seen 'vixen' written; never actually heard it. I suppose it's an ok theoretical term...But we don't use words with ok connotations for pesarbâz.


What about 'foxy lady'. It still doesn't have quite the same connotation, but I think it's similar, and I think it's an 'OK' expression. :? :?
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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby Sisyphe » 2007-10-11, 5:10

roshanak wrote:What about 'foxy lady'. It still doesn't have quite the same connotation, but I think it's similar, and I think it's an 'OK' expression. :? :?


I suppose it's the closest ok expression. :) It seems to imply that the woman is sexually appealing, and doesn't do anything to suggest relationships...let alone polyamorous relationships. :lol:
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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby eskandar » 2007-10-11, 5:10

poppy wrote:oh no, steer clear of threading, I think waxing or plucking would be better. but unibrows can be very charming you know lol!


I definitely steer clear of threading, waxing, and plucking. My aunts all tried to get me to let them thread my unibrow but I wouldn't let them, and now the ladies at work are trying! I'm proud of my unibrow, it's not going anywhere :D

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Postby alijsh » 2007-10-11, 11:34

Sisyphe wrote:
ego wrote:Weird, the Iranians have a word for "gay"? I thought there were no gays in Iran :lol:


Yeah....Ahmadinezhad was out of the loop on this one, I think. ;)

No. Don't surprise but he is almost right. generally speaking, Iranians living abroad are exagerating. It's a trick they use to gain green card, residency, or whatever else it is called. Saying that you're gay and you fear from the Iranian gvernment and its punishment is far better, easier, etc. than seeking asylum (panâhande-ye siyâsi shodan) and living in camp. I'll write you about homsexuality in Iran in Persian, in your personal thread and let's see whether I'm wrong or right. However, you must enlighten me about some things :wink: Frankly, I prefer to discuss only with you but anybody knowing Persian can participate.

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Postby Sisyphe » 2007-10-11, 15:15

Yeah, I've heard of that trick before...Though the US will put a tail on them and watch them like hawks, so it doesn't work as well here as it might in the Netherlands for instance. I'll be interested in what you have to say about things there, and of course, I will answer your questions about here. :)
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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby kalemiye » 2007-10-13, 9:10

alijsh wrote:<b>zanbâz</b> - a man who has / is inclined to have relationship with several women / girls <b><i>(what do you say in English? Don Juan?)</i></b>


I never heard "Don Juan" used in English, but it's quite popular in Spanish. It is used, as you stated, on someone who has many relationships with several woman, but isn't attached to any of them.

"Don Juan" is a character used in many theatre plays in Spanish since almost the middle ages, usually the plays show that if someone doesn't behave correctly and stains the honour of a women or a family ends up in hell... so it's a moral story. In the latest version of it, in the 19th century, the man is saved by a her last lover's love.

If you have the chance of reading some Spanish plays about this, I recommend you "El Burlador de Sevilla" (XVII century) by Tirso de Molina and "Don Juan Tenorio" (XIX century) by José Zorrilla.
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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby alijsh » 2007-10-14, 14:34

renata wrote:I never heard "Don Juan" used in English, but it's quite popular in Spanish.

Oh, really. I thought it is used. We use it in Persian as well although it's now a dated term and many of the young generation (to whom I belong :D) may don't know it. However, since we have apparently taken in from French, we pronounce the j as in French. We say: don zhuân.

Spanish is the only language that I'm currently learning seriously (to master) and when I got to a basic fluency, I'll try to find and read the books you mentioned. In fact, one of my reasons for learning Spanish is to dive into its great literature :wink: You know,reading literature in its original language is something else.

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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby roshanak » 2007-10-16, 22:48

alijsh wrote:
renata wrote:I never heard "Don Juan" used in English, but it's quite popular in Spanish.

Oh, really. I thought it is used. We use it in Persian as well although it's now a dated term and many of the young generation (to whom I belong :D) may don't know it. However, since we have apparently taken in from French, we pronounce the j as in French. We say: don zhuân.

Spanish is the only language that I'm currently learning seriously (to master) and when I got to a basic fluency, I'll try to find and read the books you mentioned. In fact, one of my reasons for learning Spanish is to dive into its great literature :wink: You know,reading literature in its original language is something else.


I don't know exactly about how widely it is used - I suppose it isn't an everyday term - BUT, I certainly knew exactly what it referred to when you mentioned it, Alijsh, and I was a bit surprised to hear people object to it being a common expression.

I think the generation thing might have something to do with it, and maybe because there are so many other expressions that are used more often, but I just wanted to tell you not to be put off using it as though noone would know what you meant, because I think most would.

(Sorry if that's a bit rambly. I just woke up, so I might not be making much sense at the moment! :wink: )
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Re: gay - hamjens baz?

Postby alijsh » 2007-10-18, 12:06

eskandar wrote:
alijsh wrote:may clean his eyebrows (it's taboo in our culture even though many of actors do it)


Are there any expressions related to this? I ask because many of my co-workers are Iranian women and they all want to thread my unibrow :lol: I made up an expression of my own-- "bi abru, bi âb-e ru!"

Oops. I had missed your question. sharmande!

"bi abru, bi âb-e ru!" :lol: I like it and I'll tell it to others. But I like to add a ya'ni to it. biabru ya'ni biâberu. What do you think?

I'm unibrow too :wink: If they want to remove the hair between the eyebrows, please don't allow them. I have seen several actors that have done so. In my eyes, it hasn't become nice.

Based on my dictionary, to thread means "remove facial hair by tying a fine string around it and pulling at the string". It's a very very old technique in Iran and I can't believe it's found in the West. In my opinion, it works better than any depilator device. Anyway, its Persian is "band andâxtan" (بند انداختن).


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