linguoboy wrote:I don't see how it could be "less artificial" when the current standard is based on actually existing spoken varieties which can be learned completely whereas the Leinster standard would have to be based on extinct varieties for which only fragmentary documentation exists.
I don't think it would have to be based on Traditional Leinster Irish - as you said, there isn't enough information about it to base a language on it - but we could default to CO where there's not enough surviving dialectal Leinster Irish. It wouldn't be traditional leinster Irish, but it's the nearest we can get.
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:The problem with the standard in this case is the relation to the remaining traditional L1 speakers. In other countries this would only be the difference between spoken and written language, but here the L2 majority has to speak as it is written, since they have no other choice (or have they?)
I would like to see the kind of revived Leinster Irish-Standard Irish hybrid we mentioned before become the spoken vernacular of Leinster, but in any case Leinster speakers of Irish do have a spoken form different from their written form - a more Anglicised form. If we take Gaelscoil graduates as a model for fluent speakers of Irish from Leinster, I would say that they would write CO Irish in formal (and even informal) settings, but their spoken Irish would be more Anglicised. Anglicisms are considered incorrect and few people would defend them in written Irish (including speakers from Leinster), but when spoken they abound.
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:, and this puts the L1s with their deviant speech at a disadvantage as country hicks or extremists, both when they speak and when they write.
I really don't thin anyone thinks that. I mean, within the Irish language enthusiast community here, Gaeltacht Irish is considered the prestige with CO frequently being derided. I haven't ever seen anyone mocked or looked down upon for using Gaeltacht Irish, either written or spoken, in any context. I have, however, seen this happen to people who use the standard (and even moreso to those who used the kind of Anglicised spoken Irish found in Leinster).
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:With my suggestion, everyone would be at an equal disadvantage when to write, so you would have the usual situation "snakk dialekt, skriv nynorsk" as the Norwegians say.
Personally, I just think that all forms (Munster, Ulster, Connacht and CO) should be considered equally acceptible in writting.
kevin wrote:I may be missing important points, but the main difference in the situation that I can see now is that the artificial written standard has a shorter tradition in Ireland and perhaps the change is happening faster (though I have no idea if the latter is really true today or if there is just a perceived danger of it happening in the future).
I think the main difference is that Standard Irish is not replacing the dialects, English is. I think Gaeltacht speakers' anger towards the standard is misdirected - speakers in the Gaeltachtaí are not abandoning their native dialects for CO, they are abandoning it for English. As far as I'm concerned, CO provides people like me with a neutral form of Irish that allows us to embrace the language without conceding any of our regional identity.
Levike wrote:Does Irish have some kind of prestige?
Top-down it does. The government supports its usage (at least nominally), it has widespread and vocal support from the general populace. In Dublin, it is increasingly being associated with an intellectual elite (something which I think is a serious problem for its revival in Dublin).
Levike wrote:Or is it just like "another school subject" for kids?
Most kids feel that way about it (I know I did), but most people change their stance towards it when they leave school (though the effect of being forced to learn it when they didn't want to has a terrible impact on their view of their own prospects of learning it). The Gaelscoileanna (Irish-Medium Schools) are having a positive impact there - a lot more kids are able to speak the language fluently now, which is perhaps changing school-kids' attitudes towards it.
Levike wrote:How did you feel about it at school?
I hated it and refused to learn it. I started feeling differently about it almost the second it stopped being forced on me though.