TAC 2016 - Mike - Turkish, Portuguese

[Michael]

[flag=]tr[/flag] Turkish
Current level: A1 speaking, A2 reading.
Goals: B1 speaking, B2 reading.
Materials: Starting Turkish, by Orhan Doğan (2006), and Colloquial Turkish, by Yusuf Mardin (1976).

[flag=]pt-br[/flag] Brazilian Portuguese
Current level: A2 speaking, B1 reading.
Goals: B2 speaking, C1 reading.
Materials: A intimação, by John Grisham (English to Portuguese translation).

[dEhiN]

Good luck MIke! Seems like a fair challenge, but definitely doable. Have a question for you about your use of Anki? Do you use it every day? And have you basically just built up your own deck from vocabulary over the years as you've used Thackston and other resources for Persian (+ whatever other languages you have for it)?

I used to use Anki a lot. I had several hundred words in one massive language deck, consisting of words across multiple languages. But I was basically adding in new words/phrases whenever I came across them, whether they be through a resource or in conversations on Skype, or in articles online. And I would add them sans context/sentence. So I think these combined to make it become a tedious thing that I didn't think was helping me. Since then I haven't used Anki (so maybe for about 1 year now), although I did save my deck and also I keep my account active.

But I've been debating for a few weeks now about starting up Anki again. If I do, I don't think I'll use the deck I had; I might even delete that deck. But I'm trying to figure out a good way to use Anki that would actually help me.

[Limagne]

Unfortunately Kurtuluş Öztopçu's introductory text is, in my opinion, limited and unpractical. The lessons are terribly long and contain much more vocabulary than one can reasonably be expected to retain as a beginner.

More importantly, I find that Öztopçu did not pay enough attention to the finer grammar points specific to Azerbaijani and thus presented a relatively edulcorated version of the language, which is probably a consequence of the author's own linguistic bias as a native Turkish speaker. Elementary Azerbaijani will give you a solid grounding in the language but you will still need to familiarize yourself with the peculiarities of Azerbaijani grammar and usage.

I recommend you have a look at Nemat Rahmati and Korkut Buğday's Aserbaidschanisch Lehrbuch , published by Harrassowitz.

[הענט]

I want to learn Turkish, Azeri,Uzbek and Kyrgyz someday. Crazy wanderlusts.

[Trapy]

Good luck with Azeri! I have wNted to dabble in it for some time, but Georgian won out for me at the start. I'll be checking in on this as my wanderlust inevitably explodes mid year so keep good notes!

[Michael]

Have a question for you about your use of Anki? Do you use it every day? And have you basically just built up your own deck from vocabulary over the years as you've used Thackston and other resources for Persian (+ whatever other languages you have for it)?

I'm a perfectionist with borderline-OCD tendencies, and have a fear of "missing out", so to speak, but at the same time want to avoid Anki burnout, so what I do to keep everything nice 'n organized is, I name the deck after the course (as opposed to the target language, as many on here usually do) and create a separate "Type" (template) named after the author (instead of after the script of the target language, like I used to do) to be used exclusively with that deck, so that way I can make sure I absorb every last bit of vocabulary from that course without interfering with, even if it would technically be a duplicate. I only avoid duplicates within a course, since I type in the answer.

I've never added vocabulary from outside of my courses because by the time I complete a course and consequentially have a grasp of fundamental vocabulary, I find I can memorize new words more easily. Plus, the more languages you use it to learn, the more reviewing you will have to do, so I would recommend just sticking to the course material for simplicity's sake.

Back when I used to actually learn Spanish and Portuguese, I wasn't acquainted with Anki and studied them the old-fashioned way, with notebook and pen, but by the time I seriously took up Greek, I had already heard of Anki, and I'm indebted to it for having helped me learn basic Greek in a timeframe of 4 months. Unfortunately, my perfectionism got the best of me and I ended up deleting the whole deck because, in my eyes, the way I formatted it was "messy" (although the book I used was itself somewhat scattered), but looking back now, I'd rather have had that, mess or not, because nowadays my Greek vocabulary is about as rusty as the wreck of the Titanic. Nowadays, I only have my two (soon to be three, then four) decks for my TAC languages.

As for how much I use it, well I guess I use it whenever I see those green numbers that need attending to.

Unfortunately Kurtuluş Öztopçu's introductory text is, in my opinion, limited and unpractical. The lessons are terribly long and contain much more vocabulary than one can reasonably be expected to retain as a beginner.

More importantly, I find that Öztopçu did not pay enough attention to the finer grammar points specific to Azerbaijani and thus presented a relatively edulcorated version of the language, which is probably a consequence of the author's own linguistic bias as a native Turkish speaker. Elementary Azerbaijani will give you a solid grounding in the language but you will still need to familiarize yourself with the peculiarities of Azerbaijani grammar and usage.

I recommend you have a look at Nemat Rahmati and Korkut Buğday's Aserbaidschanisch Lehrbuch , published by Harrassowitz.

Yeah, I had a hunch from the start about the authenticity of the language taught since I always had that knowledge in the back of my mind that the author wasn't a native speaker. Nonetheless, I still hold the course in utmost esteem and view it as a work of art, relative to the fact that no other English-language text, of such depth or otherwise, has been published to date. For the time being, I'm merely dipping my toes in Turkic waters, so to say, however I do appreciate your heads-up on the (unbeknownst to me) watered-down nature of its grammatical explanations.

Yet, I don't know if it's just me or what, but I haven't found the individual unit to be drawn-out in and of itself. Öztopçu does a great job of balancing conversation, grammar, reading passages, exercises, examples and notes on usage throughout each unit, maintaining a variety that keeps me engaged and hungry for more from beginning to end. Of course, I could see how the unit may start to become excessive once you arrive at those sprawling vocabulary lists, but with Anki anything is in reach for me, and I'll admit, I'm a sucker for long vocabulary lists.

I looked up the textbook you recommended me, but I'm not sure how much use I'd be able to get out of it, it being the case that I don't know German and all…

I want to learn Turkish, Azeri,Uzbek and Kyrgyz someday. Crazy wanderlusts.

I've wanderlusted for Kyrgyz before, but the wanderlust dissipates as soon as the documentary is over.

[Michael]

Time for the inaugural update!

As I wrote in the Wanderlust Support Group, I'm swapping Persian for Spanish for TAC 2016.

Progress
Öztopçu: Completed 4/12, currently on page 94/311. Learned how to conjugate verbs in the affirmative and negative present tenses.

Thus far, I've committed to memory 277 nouns, 64 verbs, 48 adjectives (barring numbers), 26 adverbs, and 46 phrases. Can't wait to see what those quantities will look like once I complete this workbook.

[Michael]

İkinci (2^ci) Həftənin Yeriliki (Week 2 Update)

[flag=]az[/flag] Progress
Öztopçu: Still trudging through 5/12, on page 109/311. Have learned the functions of the ablative and accusative case suffixes, completing all 5 of them, how to tell time, including before and after the hour, and currently studying the genitive-possessive compound, the compound noun, and which contexts call for which construction. Now have a command of the 100 most basic verbs used in Azeri.

[Michael]

Üçüncü (3^cü) Həftənin Yeriliki (Week 3 Update)

[flag=]az[/flag] Progress
Öztopçu: Almost done with 6/12, currently on page 136/311. In this last unit, I've learnt how to form ordinal numbers, how to conjugate in the simple past tense, units of time (more on this in the next paragraph), and vocab concerning colors, clothing and finance, among the other 180-odd vocab words of the unit I memorized.

Something I find interesting is that in Azerbaijan there are 2 sets of terms for the days of the week, the first set being Persianate, more formal and used officially, and the second colloquial. Here's a table breaking it down:

#	Set 1	#	Set 2	#	English
3	bazar ertəsi ("After Market")	1	birinci gün ("first day")	2	Monday
4	çərşənbə axşamı ("Four and Sabbath Eve")	2	ikinci gün ("second day")	3	Tuesday
5	çərşənbə ("Four and Sabbath")	3	üçüncü gün ("third day")	4	Wednesday
6	cümə axşamı ("Congregation Eve")	4	dördüncü gün ("fourth day")	5	Thursday
7	cümə ("Congregation", holy day)	5	beşinci gün ("fifth day")	6	Friday
1	şənbə ("Sabbath")	6	altıncı gün ("sixth day")	7	Saturday
2	bazar ("Market")	7	yeddinci gün ("seventh day")	1	Sunday

____________________________________________________________

Now that I'm on the cusp of the Second Review, let's take a look at how much Anki has taught me so far.

• 922 total cards in deck
• 522 nouns
• 128 verbs
• 97 adjectives
• 71 phrases
• 38 adverbs

[voron]

Your last set should say American, not European. In most of Europe, the week begins with Monday.

Russian and other Slavic languages numerate their days of the week too:

Monday - понедельник - "after the week"
Tuesday - вторник - "second"
Wednesday - среда - "middle"
Thursday - четверг - "fourth"
Friday - пятница - "fifth"
Saturday - суббота - "Sabbath"
Sunday - воскресение - "resurrection"

I find çerşembe axşamı awkward. How do
they say "Tuesday evening" I wonder?

[księżycowy]

Even in America, starting the week on Monday is prevalent. Though starting it on Sunday is not unheard of.

[linguoboy]

Even in America, starting the week on Monday is prevalent. Though starting it on Sunday is not unheard of.

Source? Of the hundreds of English-language calendar produced in the USA that I've seen, I've yet to see a single one which shows the week beginning on Monday.

[księżycowy]

I guess I was thinking work week wise, you are right that calanders do tend to start on Sunday.

Edit: Though, as I consider it more, there is great variance in how workplaces determine the "work week." Nevermind.

[Michael]

Your last set should say American, not European. In most of Europe, the week begins with Monday.

Yeah, I wasn't sure what to name the last set in relation to the others. At first, I wanted to name it "Gregorian", but Azeri also uses the Gregorian calendar, apparent in the Russian-derived names of its months. I was considering "Western" too, but in light of your suggestion, I'll rename it "English".

I find çerşembe axşamı awkward. How do they say "Tuesday evening" I wonder?

Good question. I wish Öztopçu would have spared a minute to discuss that, but perhaps it would be çərşənbə axşamının axşamı?

[Michael]

As reading comprehension is becoming ever so important, I will start providing translations of the various Texts for Reading given at the end of each unit on this thread, schedule permitting. I was set on also providing recordings of each excerpt, but that would be redundant, as I've attained a pretty solid grip on Azeri phonology by now. I won't mind constructive criticism by natives or students of other Turkic languages.

For those wondering, I'll be rendering the excerpts in Cambria font (what I use on Anki), large size because Trebuchet MS doesn't support <ə>, the most common vowel of the Azerbaijani language, plus I find the font more aesthetic.

Altıncı (6^cı) Vahidin Çıxarışları (Excerpts from Unit 6)

Şer: Bakı

Adın gəzir dodaqlarda,
Yaxınlarda, uzaqlarda.
Şöhrətin var hər diyarda,
Gözəl Bakı, gözəl Bakı!

Buruqların gəlməz saya
Ucalırsan günə, aya.
Səs salırsan bu dünyaya,
Gözəl Bakı, gözəl Bakı.

—Zeynal Cabbarzadə

Poem: Baku

Your name travels within lips,
Within those near, within those far.
You have glory in every land,
Beautiful Baku, beautiful Baku!

Your wells do not come in number
You rise up to the day, to the moon.
You inject voice into this world
Beautiful Baku, beautiful Baku.

—Zeynal Jabbarzade

Bakı böyük və gözəl şəhərdir. Bu gözəl şəhər Xəzər Dənizinin sahilində yerləşir. Bakının iki milyondan artıq əhalisi var. Bakı beynəlmiləl şəhərdir. Bakı neftçilər şəhəri sayılır. Onun nefti dünyada məşhurdur. Bakı Azərbaycan Respublikasının paytaxtı, elm və mədəniyyət mərkəzidir. Burada akademiya, universitetlər, çoxlu institutlar, texnikumlar vardır. Bakı qədim şəhərdir. Bu şəhərdə maraqlı tarixi abidələr, muzeylər və parklar çoxdur.

Baku is a big and beautiful city. This beautiful city is located on the shore of the Caspian Sea. Baku has a population of upwards of 2,000,000. Baku is an international city. Baku is considered the City of Oilmen. Its oil is famous throughout the world. Baku is the capital of the Republic of Azerbaijan as well as its scientific and cultural center. There are academies, universities, and several institutes and technical schools there. Baku is an ancient city. There are many interesting historical monuments, museums and parks in this city.

Mən bu gün saat 7-də (yeddində) yatağımdan qalxdım. Əl-üzümü yudum. Saçımı daradım. Saat 8-də (səkkizdə) səhər yeməyimi yedim. Saat 9-da (doqquzda) evdən çıxdım, məktəbə getdim. Saat 10-da (onda) dərs başladı. Məktəbdə dörd saat qaldım. Sonra restorana getdim və nahar etdim. Ondan sonra Nizami Parkına getdim. Nizami Parkı çox gözəldir. Parkda yüzlərlə ağac əkilmişdir. Park çox yaşıldır, onun havası lap təmizdir. Orada dostlarımı gördüm. Söhbət etdik. Sonra dostlarımdan ayrıldım. Kinoya getdim. Saat 12-də (on ikində) evə qayıtdım və bir az televizora baxdım.

Today I got up from [my] bed at 7 o'clock. I washed my face. I combed my hair. At 8 o'clock I ate [my] breakfast. At 9 o'clock I left home and went to school. Class began at 10 o'clock. I stayed 4 hours at school. Afterwards I went to a restaurant and had lunch. After that I went to Nizami Park. Nizami Park is very pretty. Hundreds of trees are planted in the park. The park is very green and its air is very clean. I saw my friends there. We had a conversation. Afterwards I left [from] my friends. I went to the movies. At 12 o'clock I returned home and watched TV for a little bit.

Şer: Qadın Dözümü

Uşaq oldum,
Cavanlığa tələsdim.
Cavan oldum,
Rüzgar kimi hey əsdim -
Mən sevməyə, sevilməyə tələsdim.
Ana oldum, şəlalə tək çağladım,
Ümidimi bir körpəyə bağladım,
Güldü - güldüm,
Ağlayanda - ağladım.
Arzu etdim:
Ana olsun qoy o da,
Məndən sonra tək qalmasın dünyada.

—Mirvarid Dilbazi

Poem: The Strength of a Woman

I became a child,
I rushed towards childhood.
I became young,
Like the wind, I hadn't a care in the world ("blew circumstance") -
I rushed towards loving and being loved.
I became a mother, a waterfall I flowed alone,
I attached my hope to a baby,
It laughed - I laughed,
When it cried - I cried.
I wished:
May she become a mother too,
That she may not remain alone in the world after me.

—Mirvarid Dilbazi

A: Alo, alo, kimdir danışan?
Pərviz: Pərvizəm, -deyə 5 (beş) yaşlı uşaq cavab verdi.
A: Evinizdə kim var?
P: Təkəm.
A: Bir söz desəm atana çatdırarsan?
P: Bəs necə?
A: Deyim, yaz!
P: Dayan, kağız-qələm götürüm.

Telefondakı kişi 5 (beş) dəqiqə gözlədikdən sonra balaca Pərvizin səsi eşidildi:
P: Kağız tapmışam, bir az dayan, qələm də tapım.
A: Tez ol, bala, mən tələsirəm.

5 (beş) dəqiqə keçəndən sonra telefonda səs eşidildi:
P: Qələm də tapmışam.
A: Yavaş-yavaş deyim yaz.
P: Mən axı yazmaq bacarmıram.

A: Hello, hello, who's speaking?
Parviz: "I'm Parviz", replied the 5-year-old.
A: Who's at your house?
P: I'm by myself.
A: If I say a word, will you pass it by your father?
P: Why not?
A: When I say it, write it down!
P: Wait, let me get a paper and pen.

After 5 minutes of the man on the phone waiting, little Parviz's voice was heard:
P: I've found [a piece of] paper, wait a little bit so I can find a pen too.
A: Hurry up, kid, I'm in a hurry.

After another 5 minutes had passed, a voice was heard:
P: I've found a pen too.
A: Write down what I slowly say.
P: Actually, I can't write.

[vijayjohn]

I find çerşembe axşamı awkward. How do
they say "Tuesday evening" I wonder?

Or Wednesday evening, Thursday evening, or Friday evening!

Good question. I wish Öztopçu would have spared a minute to discuss that, but perhaps it would be çərşənbə axşamının axşamı?

I seem to be finding çərşənbə axşamının günü being translated as 'Tuesday evening'.

Maybe I'll try to find more reliable information when I'm not sick.

Your name travels within lips,
Within those near, within those far.

I'm tempted to interpret it as:

Your name travels through lips,
Through those near, through those far.

Your wells do not come in number

Yeah, that looks like a hard sentence. Maybe something that literally means "the number of wells does not come"? Is saya inflected for case, or is it the same as Turkish sayı 'number'?

I like the last conversation though.

[voron]

Your name travels within lips,
Within those near, within those far.

I'd translate it as:

Your name travels within lips,
In near places, in far places

There is a poem about Istanbul that uses the same word:
http://www.siir.gen.tr/siir/o/orhan_vel ... iyorum.htm

Uzaklarda, çok uzaklarda,
Sucuların hiç durmayan çıngırakları

In very far places, there are never stopping rattle sounds of water sellers.

Your wells do not come in number

Buruq means a twist, that is a twisted street, and I guess "saya" is the dative of "say":

Your twisted streets do not come to a number (=they are endless).

[vijayjohn]

OK, I probably should have thought of this earlier, but I think maybe people don't usually have to deal with the problem of how to say something like 'Tuesday evening' because the official names aren't the ones they use day to day anyway. However, the author of this blog post claims that she "only ever hear[s] people using birinci gün to altıncı gün for Monday to Saturday and bazar günü for Sunday."

[OldBoring]

Gün becomes günü?
To me, if bazar means well bazar/market, it makes sense that they call Sunday “bazar day”, and not simply “bazar”.

[vijayjohn]

Gün becomes günü?

When it's modified by a noun, yes. (Same in Turkish).

To me, if bazar means well bazar/market, it makes sense that they call Sunday “bazar day”, and not simply “bazar”.

I'd compare it to "Christmas" vs. "Christmas Day." Same thing. Turkish similarly has pazar (which also means 'market/Sunday'). But I get the impression that the official term for the day in Azerbaijani is bazar, but the colloquial term is bazar günü.