Name of Catalan subforum

[Saim]

I understand that Unilang wants to avoid controversial political issues in the names of subforums, and I see the analogy with Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian and Hindi-Urdu. "Valencian" is an official name for the language and the most common name in the Valencian country, perfectly accepted in academic and official spheres. Keep in mind though that the Valencian Language Academy, the highest authority for the Valencian language and patronized by the Valencian Generalitat, uses the term "Valencian" but recognizes that it is a synonym for Catalan.

However, in the Balearic Islands the situation is very different. the official language is called Catalan. In school, they have the class llengua catalana. Both the Balearic government and academia call it Catalan. Colloquially, no-one calls it Balearic either. Rather, it's known by name of each island: "jo xerr mallorquí, menorquí, eivissenc" (I speak Majorcan, Menorcan, Ibizan).

Hence, I suggest we remove the term "Balearic/balear" from the subforum name, leaving the subforum to be called Catalan-Valencian (català-valencià). You could argue that we should add the popular names for Catalan in the Balearics, but I think català/valencià/mallorquí/menorquí/eivissenc/formenterer ends up being a bit long, and a bit unnecessary since the official name for Catalan in the Balearics is just that, Catalan. Furthermore, in other Catalan-speaking territories there are other popular names, such as xapurriat (in the Catalan-speaking areas of Aragón), alguerés (in the Catalan-speaking city Alguero in Sardinia) or patuès de Rosselló (in Rossellon, France) - but just like mallorquí and balear they have little to no academic or official use. So I think it makes most sense given the usage in academic and official contexts to just go with Catalan or Catalan-Valencian.

Just as an aside, I also think it's a bit strange and inconsistent to have "Balearic" in the title for the Catalan subforum when the terms "Moldavan" for Romanian and "castellano" for Spanish (at least in Spanish) are proportionally much more common and accepted.

What do you guys think?

[Marah]

patuès de Rosselló

Crec que "rossellonès" es fa servir més sovint.

But I agree with you, "Balearic" is a weird term that I've never really seen used.

[Saim]

patuès de Rosselló

Crec que "rossellonès" es fa servir més sovint.

No ho sabia. A la Franja de Ponent fan servir termes despectius (com ara xapurriat, que vol dir "mal parlat", que crec que seria equivalent del mot patuès) o locals (fragatí, ribagorçà, etcètera) - pensava que passava el mateix allà al Nord.

But I agree with you, "Balearic" is a weird term that I've never really seen used.

The only time I've seen it is:
-here
-on Ethnologue
-in one dictionary (Diccionari del català-valencià-balear)
-from the Balearic far-right (example: "Sa primera gramàtica d’es mallorquí se va púbblica a n’es 1835, no essênd fins 1918, vuytanta tres añs después, cuand en Pompeu Fabra va púbblica sa primera gramàtica de sa llengo catalana."). And when I say far-right I mean actual ultras and falangistas.

[JackFrost]

Personally, I'd rather have one name for one language "Catalan (català)" for simplicity’s sake, but I cannot really deny the Valencian case and not factor in the political factor a bit even if we linguists shouldn't really do that (because science).

All for "Catalan/Valencian (català/valencià)" renaming.

-from the Balearic far-right (example: "Sa primera gramàtica d’es mallorquí se va púbblica a n’es 1835, no essênd fins 1918, vuytanta tres añs después, cuand en Pompeu Fabra va púbblica sa primera gramàtica de sa llengo catalana."). And when I say far-right I mean actual ultras and falangistas.

Exactly. All of this name splitting thing is just a "divide and conquer" tactic to assimilate minority people one by one since they can't do everyone at once obviously.

[mōdgethanc]

The only time I've seen it is:
-here
-on Ethnologue

Same.

Personally, I'd rather have one name for one language "Catalan (català)" for simplicity’s sake, but I cannot really deny the Valencian case and not factor in the political factor a bit even if we linguists shouldn't really do that (because science).

I would rather just call it "Catalan" since nobody says "Valencian" in English (that I know of) but if some people call it "Valencian" in Catalan, might as well have both. On the other hand, Saim has a point that we don't have a "Romanian/Moldovan" forum either, probably since nobody cares about Moldova. Why don't we ask if anyone objects to just "Catalan" as opposed to "Catalan/Valencian" and go from there?

[enricmm]

I don't see why should we give to the glossonym Valencian an special treatment. All the other glossonyms are accepted and more or less used in their respective areas. Sure the case of the glossonym Valencian is special because it completely replaced the unitary glossonym in its respective area long ago, but that doesn't make it an acceptable glossonym for the whole language. Besides, almost everyone in the Valencian Country accepts that Valencian is a synonym for Catalan. Those who seek to divide the language are a noisy minority.

Let's just call the forum Catalan (Català).

[Marah]

I don't see why should we give to the glossonym Valencian an special treatment. All the other glossonyms are accepted and more or less used in their respective areas. Sure the case of the glossonym Valencian is special because it completely replaced the unitary glossonym in its respective area long ago, but that doesn't make it an acceptable glossonym for the whole language. Besides, almost everyone in the Valencian Country accepts that Valencian is a synonym for Catalan. Those who seek to divide the language are a noisy minority.

most Valencian speakers (64.40%) assert that Valencian is a different language from Catalan.[6

They're anything but a minority actually.

[enricmm]

I've yet to encounter a Valencian that tells me that Catalan and Valencian are not the same language. And in academic spheres everyone asserts that Valencian is nothing but the glossonym for Catalan used in the Valencian Country and not the name os a language.

[Car]

IIRC, "balear/Balearic" was added after the then-mod of the forum suggested it.

As a rule, we're fine with changing forum names to something that's generally seem as better or more appropriate, but we don't want to end up having to change it back and forth all the time.

[Saim]

IIRC, "balear/Balearic" was added after the then-mod of the forum suggested it.

What was the rationale?

[enricmm]

IIRC, "balear/Balearic" was added after the then-mod of the forum suggested it.

As a rule, we're fine with changing forum names to something that's generally seem as better or more appropriate, but we don't want to end up having to change it back and forth all the time.

How about switching to Catalan only? If it doesn't work then Catalan/Valencian stays, but let us try the Catalan only thing. Anyway, no one call it Balearic, so whatever option you choose, Balearic cannot stay.

[Lur]

I don't see why should we give to the glossonym Valencian an special treatment. All the other glossonyms are accepted and more or less used in their respective areas. Sure the case of the glossonym Valencian is special because it completely replaced the unitary glossonym in its respective area long ago, but that doesn't make it an acceptable glossonym for the whole language. Besides, almost everyone in the Valencian Country accepts that Valencian is a synonym for Catalan. Those who seek to divide the language are a noisy minority.

Let's just call the forum Catalan (Català).

For me the name Català takes preference because it precedes Valencià chronologically.

Occitan > Català > Valencià

The Valencian dialects come from invasion from the North anyways. (All Romance languages in the Peninsula have this funny stripped North-South distribution, they deleted the southern languages from existence.)

[JackFrost]

I've yet to encounter a Valencian that tells me that Catalan and Valencian are not the same language.

And no one here is arguing it is. It'll be still a forum for one language.

I would rather just call it "Catalan" since nobody says "Valencian" in English (that I know of)

We still have to translate "valencià" if it still stays though.

Again, I prefer just "Catalan (català)". I'm only saying I don't have an issue if we keep the "Valencian" part.

[Marah]

If you just call the forum Catalan that could be perceived as taking a political decision. If you keep both names you respect the Valencians who prefer using the name Valencià. Anyway, it's not like there are two forums, one for Catalan and one for Valencian...

[Car]

IIRC, "balear/Balearic" was added after the then-mod of the forum suggested it.

What was the rationale?

I'm not sure anymore, I couldn't find a post or PM about it and it was many years ago. Based on other forum posts, it appears it was only called "Catalan/català" in the beginning, though, so it seems that at first "Valencian/valencià" was added and then it was extended again.

I'm fine with "Balearic/balear" disappearing, but I don't think removing "Valencian/valencià" would be the most "neutral" option.

[Lur]

If you just call the forum Catalan that could be perceived as taking a political decision.

Just name it Occitan and move Aragonese and Occitan threads there if any

[enricmm]

If you just call the forum Catalan that could be perceived as taking a political decision.

What's so political about calling a language the name that everybody calls it? The Valencian Academy has already said many times that Valencian is just the glossonym for Catalan used there. And as mōdgethanc pointed out, nobody outside Catalan-speaking areas calls it Valencian so why call it Valencian? I'm sure that any reason you may give me would make the same sense if we were trying to rename the English forum English/American: none. Jusy keep the local glossonyms where they belong.

[Marah]

What's so political about calling a language the name that everybody calls it?

No, not Valencians.

most Valencian speakers (64.40%) assert that Valencian is a different language from Catalan.[6

[enricmm]

So if I believe that I'm not writing this in English, it ceases to be English or something? What criteria is that?

No linguist claims that Catalan and Valencian are two languages and that should be enough for us. And despite the fact that statistics say that, Valencians are not as radically opposed to linguistic unity. I'm pretty sure that these results have to do with the divide et impera tactics used by politicians and that this result is so high probably because the question was delibarately formulated in a amibiguous way, something like Do you think that Valencian is different from the Catalan spoken in Catalonia?. I tell you: I've yet to encounter a Valencian that asserts vehemently that Catalan and Valencian are not the same language. Sure there are many, but not that many.

[Marah]

No linguist claims that Catalan and Valencian are two languages and that should be enough for us. And despite the fact that statistics say that, Valencians are not as radically opposed to linguistic unity. I'm pretty sure that these results have to do with the divide et impera tactics used by politicians and that this result is so high probably because the question was delibarately formulated in a amibiguous way, something like Do you think that Valencian is different from the Catalan spoken in Catalonia?.

Well, linguistically there's no difference between a dialect and a language. There are some differences between Catalan and Valencian, so if they want to consider it a language we can't say "you're wrong, linguistically". Of course we may not share their opinion.
Anyway, they make up a third of all Catalan speakers why shouldn't they have their name written along Catalan?

I tell you: I've yet to encounter a Valencian that asserts vehemently that Catalan and Valencian are not the same language. Sure there are many, but not that many

We're all more or less biased, personal experiences are not evidence. Maybe they're not that many but if even 64% consider it a different language, how many would want to keep Valencià as a name for the forum?