UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

This forum is for discussing the ongoing and future projects and resources of UniLang. Please post your comments, criticism and ideas here. We are always trying to expand on things members find useful, helpful, or fun! This is also the place to report errors in systems and resources on the UniLang site.

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UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby bab » 2012-04-15, 17:12

Hi people,

this my first post here in years (shame on me!).

There is a discussion about the future (development) of UniLang In the Facebook UniLang group, but the discussion should better take place here.

There is some kind of consensus that
- the Forum is the most active part of the site, while maintaining it is difficult
- many of the features of UniLang are more or less abandoned or outdated.
- many of the old administrators (moderators, resource creators, techies...) have moved on, or are at least very busy with their "daytime jobs".
- there are people who are willing to weed and prune, but we first need a "plan" and some management.

This thread should only be the starting point. As soon as we have an idea of what to do and who can do it, we'd better create new threads for specific tasks.

Cheers,
bab
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby proycon » 2012-04-15, 17:36

I agree, pruning old stuff is a good idea. Just as long as we don't throw away valuable language resources away. Archiving forum threads is also a good idea. And I like Aba's idea about collaborating with like-minded projects, like wikilang, and his own. The UniLang wiki has been rather crippled ever since an encoding corruption incident and Wikilang seems a nice project in which some of our salvageable wiki content might find a good home, providing hashi is interested and someone copies it over. I don't think we have a shortage of good ideas, but of developers.

I don't know if other parties/projects with similar (non-profit, open-data) interests are interesting in taking on other resources we have. There is a considerable bunch of stories, phrasebooks in our ULR XML format that can be fairly easily converted for a wide variety of uses. I've always advocated open data, so basically anybody can just pick this up in theory if they adhere to the same openness. I think I'll put them publicly on github so they can be easily used. Though it would be unfortunate if we can't host and develop the resources ourselves, the most important thing is that the resources themselves don't get lost. Then there's also the courses, which are a great resource but a bit more difficult to port. For me personally, the most interesting aspect of UniLang, alongside the community itself, are the resources and the platforms we can build to facilitate language learning. And as I hoped to show in my last post, I still have a fairly clear vision and lots of ideas, but no time to implement alongside my work/PhD-related development projects. So if others can, then that would be most welcome...

The forum seems our biggest asset, as it has been for a while despite our earlier attempts to make resources more prominent. Also the chat is a good asset, but both forum and chat seemed to have declined in popularity. It is however a good sign that UniLang subgroups pop up on social media like here, and there even is a skype group I learned today :) This brings me also to Ron's issue about the forum atmosphere deteriorating, I realise that the people are of course the most important as without people we have nothing. The moderators have a hard-time battling the occassional hords of trolls and spammers that any large forum unfortunately attracts. I haven't interfered with forum moderation for a long time, even when I was still actively developing this was left to the forum moderators, who I think have done quite a great job in all these years. The team is self-managed and has changed composition a few times as people understandly come and go (except for Car whom I hereby appoint as Honourary Highly Esteemed Forum Moderator for All Eternity ;) ). They are also doing a lot behind the screens may be hard to see for the 'common' member, and can't be everywhere at once of course. Mentality and atmosphere problems on the forum are rather hard to address and influence. Perhaps stricter rule, I don't know, I do not have a clear view on this, the forum moderators are in the best position to decide what they need and have been discussing these issues internally too. They however also need technical tools implemented to do this job, and here it comes down to development shortage again.

This may be a bit drastic, but perhaps we should focus on the forum first and perhaps even size UniLang down to a forum & chat only site for a while and offer the resources for adoption, or leave them mirrored as is on a second server (mine for example).

It all depends on people; developers, moderators and contributing members. I think the main issue now is a lack of development/maintenance and coordination therein (all largely due to my own decreased activity unfortunately). We need active and committed developers, and yet also very capable developers. The skills involved in keeping something the size of UniLang up and maintained, let alone developed further, shouldn't be underestimated. Getting the right people mobilised and into action is quite a tough task, which I'm not very good at either, and has been attempted quite a number of times in UniLang's history by Aba and I. It's hard to find the right mix of dedication, skill, and dare-I-say lunacy :)
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby bab » 2012-04-15, 19:20

Shorter replies than Proy's are welcome, too ;-)

OK, getting the forum in shape is still top priority. The question how we develop the site comes later.

Dear Moderators: what does it take to do this?, and which decision do we need to take?

Maarten, nothing will be lost if we keep a copy of the old forum somewhere. An "archive to static" operation would be perfect.
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby proycon » 2012-04-15, 19:25

Shorter replies than Proy's are welcome, too.


I'll try a shorter one for a change, I'm not good at short replies :)

One of the issues with the forum is that it is quite heavily modified, updating to more recent phpBB versions (which may be necessary if we were to add certain mods), is a tough process.

Maarten, nothing will be lost if we keep a copy of the old forum somewhere. An "archive to static" operation would be perfect.


Yes, I agree. That might hopefully help with the bot infestation.
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby Lauren » 2012-04-15, 19:28

Well, I've volunteered to help clean up and fix the Resources section, but I have yet to hear back from anyone. :(
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby bab » 2012-04-15, 20:01

Hildakojon, this might change soon.

But first we need to get an idea of what needs to be done: we need the current status of the site, and then make a list of activities with priority.
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby Car » 2012-04-16, 9:59

We also need to clean the user database again, surely all those spammers we banned a long time ago can't be too good for it?
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby Tenebrarum » 2012-04-16, 10:43

I would appreciate being able to upload a few materials for Vietnamese (and for other people to upload other languages too don't you think?), but don't know if that's still supported.
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby Abavagada » 2012-04-16, 13:10

Car wrote:We also need to clean the user database again, surely all those spammers we banned a long time ago can't be too good for it?


Car, a StopForumSpam mod needs to be implemented to the forum. This checks new members against a known database of spammers when they try to register and won't allow them. It can also be used to check the current members and get rid of the known spam bots as well.


Edit: Here is a link: http://support.prophpbb.com/topic2572.html
It looks like phpbb might not support the lookup of existing members, but this is a start.

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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby hashi » 2012-04-16, 13:40

As I understand it, the UniLang (UL) Wiki is grossly out of date and poorly managed resulting in an unusable portion of UL with so many great resources being brushed aside.

About 2 years ago, I started a site called WikiLang (WL), which was supposed to be a collaborative language Wiki - similar to that of the UL wiki. Accompanying this was a forum. However, both of these have since become quite unused and also covered in spam. This is a shame as like the UL wiki, there is a lot of information on there which is going unused.

What I want to suggest, is that I can remove the unused parts of the site I created, and reinstall a fresh Wiki software (without all the branding of the current site) and transfer all the wiki data from my wiki, as well as UL's wiki to this one place. The idea would be, UL could point to the WL wiki instead of its own wiki, and WL could point to the UL forums instead of its own forums. I hope this makes sense.

What I would want to know is, after transferral of all the data, is there a way to possibly merge the members from one site to another that you guys know of? My coding skills are not skilled enough to be able to create that kind of bridge unfortunately. Otherwise, if it is easier from the source code side of things just to have two separate registrations, that works too.

The second issue, is after transferral of data, I would need some people to help clean it up and rearrange it all. (Such people would be given the necessary permissions in the WL wiki to do so).

What do you think of the idea?

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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby Abavagada » 2012-04-16, 14:45

hashi wrote:What I would want to know is, after transferral of all the data, is there a way to possibly merge the members from one site to another that you guys know of? My coding skills are not skilled enough to be able to create that kind of bridge unfortunately. Otherwise, if it is easier from the source code side of things just to have two separate registrations, that works too.

The second issue, is after transferral of data, I would need some people to help clean it up and rearrange it all. (Such people would be given the necessary permissions in the WL wiki to do so).

What do you think of the idea?

Hashi


I don't know if there a phpbb<>Wikimedia bridge. If there is, I doubt it would work across domains. I know there is an SMF<>Wikimedia bridge, but even that one is a bit iffy, requiring you to create a specific member group on the forum and have the Wiki allow members of that group access to the wiki. I wouldn't propose such a tying of databases anyways until the spam members situation in the current UL DB is resolved.

As for cleaning it up, do you still have any active members of the Wikilang developers that could aid in that?

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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby proycon » 2012-04-16, 16:10

hashi wrote:As I understand it, the UniLang (UL) Wiki is grossly out of date and poorly managed resulting in an unusable portion of UL with so many great resources being brushed aside.


Indeed


About 2 years ago, I started a site called WikiLang (WL), which was supposed to be a collaborative language Wiki - similar to that of the UL wiki. Accompanying this was a forum. However, both of these have since become quite unused and also covered in spam. This is a shame as like the UL wiki, there is a lot of information on there which is going unused.


That sounds good yeah, building a unified wiki is better than having several separate ones. I like the idea of merging the two and what you have created looks nice. (and I don't really care much about the branding)

What I want to suggest, is that I can remove the unused parts of the site I created, and reinstall a fresh Wiki software (without all the branding of the current site)


I don't really mind the branding, wikilang is a cool name for a language wiki. And I like the menus you have.

and transfer all the wiki data from my wiki, as well as UL's wiki to this one place. The idea would be, UL could point to the WL wiki instead of its own wiki, and WL could point to the UL forums instead of its own forums. I hope this makes sense.


Yes, that sounds good indeed!

What I would want to know is, after transferral of all the data, is there a way to possibly merge the members from one site to another that you guys know of? My coding skills are not skilled enough to be able to create that kind of bridge unfortunately. Otherwise, if it is easier from the source code side of things just to have two separate registrations, that works too.


I made a custom kind of bridge. Whenever somebody registers at the forum, the necessary records are added to the mediawiki tables as well. This only works for new users as the passwords are obviously hashed, and hashed differently. Perhaps it's also worth investigating whether MediaWiki and phpbb3 support something like OpenID or OAuth for authentication.

The second issue, is after transferral of data, I would need some people to help clean it up and rearrange it all. (Such people would be given the necessary permissions in the WL wiki to do so).


I'm hoping people here will be interested in volunteering for such a task.

What do you think of the idea?


I like it! :)



Abavagada wrote:Car, a StopForumSpam mod needs to be implemented to the forum. This checks new members against a known database of spammers when they try to register and won't allow them. It can also be used to check the current members and get rid of the known spam bots as well.


Edit: Here is a link: http://support.prophpbb.com/topic2572.html
It looks like phpbb might not support the lookup of existing members, but this is a start.
[/quote]

That plugin looks like a good idea indeed. I'll have to check how hard it is to implement, but hopefully it may help us get rid of some of the spammers.
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby bab » 2012-04-16, 20:25

Tenebrarum wrote:I would appreciate being able to upload a few materials for Vietnamese (and for other people to upload other languages too don't you think?), but don't know if that's still supported.


Creating new language resources sounds nice, but I'd prefer if we could use some kind of wiki environment for that (why not Wikilang). This way it's much easier to concentrate on the contents, instead of concentrating on creating pages and integrating stuff into the menu.
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby hashi » 2012-04-16, 23:42

Abavagada wrote:I don't know if there a phpbb<>Wikimedia bridge. If there is, I doubt it would work across domains. I know there is an SMF<>Wikimedia bridge, but even that one is a bit iffy, requiring you to create a specific member group on the forum and have the Wiki allow members of that group access to the wiki. I wouldn't propose such a tying of databases anyways until the spam members situation in the current UL DB is resolved.


There is one for SMF<>MediaWiki which is what I'm currently using. However, it was not the best and could not handle non-ASCII user names, so I had to do a lot of modification to it (which took hours and was painful).

As for cleaning it up, do you still have any active members of the Wikilang developers that could aid in that?


Unfortunately none of the WikiLang members are really active anymore. I would mostly be looking for volunteers from UL who would be happy to do this in their free time if they get bored.

proycon wrote:I made a custom kind of bridge. Whenever somebody registers at the forum, the necessary records are added to the mediawiki tables as well. This only works for new users as the passwords are obviously hashed, and hashed differently. Perhaps it's also worth investigating whether MediaWiki and phpbb3 support something like OpenID or OAuth for authentication.


Are such bridges easy enough to create, or are they more of a hassle? According to the MediaWiki wiki, there is an extension for OpenID. There also appears to be one for phpBB on SourceForge too. Assuming both these extensions/mods work, this could be a feasible option.

proycon wrote:I like it!


Fantastic :)
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby Bubulus » 2012-04-17, 20:18

I hate to have to write such a long post, but there's just so many things being talked about here...

Re: Unilang features. I don't have an opinion about the fate of the resources, the Photo gallery and the Chinese/Japanese reading assistants; but either new Desktop Calendars get produced or we should get rid of the section. I don't see much of a point in the Voice Chat either and the Photo Gallery, to my knowledge they haven't been used even once in the past four years or so!

I'd like the Translation Centre to get its various bugs fixed one day too... (Off the top of my head: 1. not being able to add a new language anymore, 2. new resources made by accident can't be deleted, 3. translations once activated by an administrator can't be deleted (in the case of a tag chosen incorrectly), 4. the interface itself which deletes text if you change the tags (there should be a warning somewhere at least, but damn if it isn't at least highly counterintuitive/annoying). The last two are certainly what stopped me from improving the translations, it all has to be so perfect the first time you try it!)

...And as for the Wiki, I totally support somehow merging it with Wikilang. A userbase bridge would be cool, but I suggest that in the case it's not quite possible, we should still try to mobilize it all.

Re: Developing. Maarten mentions a lack of developers with the necessary time or the necessary skill, but Zeme at last has also been having some issues with the CVS (on which he elaborated in some thread in the hidden forum). In the past, I've also heard about complaints from developers about not being able to access certain things that forum administrators can. Has this been addressed yet?

Re: Pruning. I support the idea of closing and pruning the major General Topic threads after a while. Maybe once 50 pages are reached, a new one is opened, and once the new one is past 10 pages then the last one is deleted?

Also, the ZBB forum (at incatena.org) has a special "Ephemera" forum where all threads are deleted after 15 days, where users can go and post about news and other general stuff to be destroyed after the novelty is over. I find the idea useful, we could perhaps have something like that in order to clutter the forum less with things we know won't be useful anymore (besides the constantly-being-pruned-by-mods complaints/happiness/random/music/weather threads). (Note that the ZBB has essentially two forums equivalent to General Topics, one where things are pruned and another where they aren't.)

Re: Rules. We do need 'em for moderation. I'm not sure what would be the best way to develop them though.

The second issue, is after transferral of data, I would need some people to help clean it up and rearrange it all. (Such people would be given the necessary permissions in the WL wiki to do so).
*signs up as a volunteer* (I hope we get on it soon, I'll basically have little free time once July comes!)

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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby Johanna » 2012-04-17, 20:58

Some of us forum admins are working on a set of rules :)
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby hashi » 2012-04-18, 0:57

Thank you Serafin for your offer of help. I would appreciate the help a lot, and hope to minimise the time getting this project started.

I have been doing a lot of reading about the migration of one wiki to another, and it doesn't seem there is an easy way to do this. It appears (based on similar projects I've seen so far) that it will need to be done manually, which is a HUGE workload. This is why I would like to get it underway as soon as possible.

The first thing is definitely to consider how we will manage user accounts. It seems at this stage until work is done on UniLang itself (which I suspect will be a while coming) that I simply keep registration separate to UniLang (while encouraging users to use the same name for clarity's sake).

The first stage of the work will be done (unless anyone has a better suggestion) by a simple copy and paste from the UL wiki to the WLBeta wiki (I have set up the domain at http://beta.langwiki.info/ - just need to upload and install the MediaWiki script). I was planning to work from the list of all pages on UL and the list of all pages on WL.

The second stage will be even bigger - this will be the clean up. Which will involve merging duplicate pages, removing pointless pages and rearranging duplicate and illogically ordered content. A further question regarding this, is do we want to retain any of the conlanger pages? Or should a choice be given to anyone who wants to keep it to transfer it to the WL wiki within a deadline before the UL wiki is closed off?

Finally, once the wiki has been cleaned and transferred, I will move it to the main domain and remove the Beta status and hopefully all going well we can use the wiki :)

Any questions, thoughts, etc? I'm about to go setup the MediaWiki script now :)
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby Bubulus » 2012-04-18, 2:16

hashi wrote:The first stage of the work will be done (unless anyone has a better suggestion) by a simple copy and paste from the UL wiki to the WLBeta wiki (I have set up the domain at http://beta.langwiki.info/ - just need to upload and install the MediaWiki script). I was planning to work from the list of all pages on UL and the list of all pages on WL.
Just to be sure, is it from the UL wiki to the WLBeta wiki, or from both the UL wiki and the WL wiki to the WLBeta wiki?

I just went to WLBeta and it seems MediaWiki is currently getting installed. Will we use our same Wikilang accounts, or will we open new accounts?
A further question regarding this, is do we want to retain any of the conlanger pages? Or should a choice be given to anyone who wants to keep it to transfer it to the WL wiki within a deadline before the UL wiki is closed off?
I vote transferring them all without asking. Well, except the ones like Allun, Azjherben or Campe which have essentially nothing). I see most of them don't actually have that much content, so maybe I could merge them into a single article when transferring them.


I also find it ironic that the last time I went on WL was on April 17th. Exactly one year ago!

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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby hashi » 2012-04-18, 3:09

They will need to be transferred from both UL and WL to the WLBeta. The reason being is the WL one also needs a major overhaul in order to bring it to the same standards as the UL one, which just would not be a very logistically easy task to do in it's current state. We can just transfer over what is needed and purge the rest.

You will at this stage be required to re-sign up for an account with the new WLBeta. Reason being, the old WL wiki is linked to the WL forum, which under the new plan will cease to exist. Undoing such a task will be quite tricky and laborious (hence another reason why migrating everything to WLBeta is a better idea).

At this stage however, I have disabled account creation on the new Wiki until I have had a chance to properly index all the pages that require moving and have sorted out the appropriate documentation. I am working on this as we speak and estimate it should be available by tomorrow with any luck.

:)
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Re: UniLang Gardening (a.k.a. weed, prune and graft)

Postby hashi » 2012-04-18, 4:20

Ok, I've done as much as I can for now. Anyone who wants to help, please feel free, there is A LOT of work to be done, and you don't have to be amazing at coding, there is always something you can do :)

The main page: http://beta.langwiki.info/
Getting started information: http://beta.langwiki.info/Beta:Home
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