General Conlang Discussion

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Atluk
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Atluk » 2016-07-19, 16:47

linguoboy wrote:
Atluk wrote:I hate bombarding you guys with questions. Sorry if I get annoying.

Anyway, here is my revised vowel system. The first phone is its basic sound, the second is made through vowel harmony, and the other ones (if any) are the result of allophony.

/a/- [ɑ], [æ]
/i/- [i], [y], [ɛ]

I haven't decided if I want /u/ or /o/ as phoneme and whether I want [o], [u], [ʊ], or [ɔ] as the last basic sound in my three vowel system.

What kind of vowel harmony system do you have? That might help you decide.


Well, Idk what you would call this kind of vowel harmony, but when /a/ becomes [æ], represented by <ä>, /i/ must be pronounced as [ɛ] (or possibly) [e].

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby linguoboy » 2016-07-19, 16:55

Atluk wrote:Well, Idk what you would call this kind of vowel harmony, but when /a/ becomes [æ], represented by <ä>, /i/ must be pronounced as [ɛ] (or possibly) [e].

Yeah, that's not quite how vowel harmony works.

Vowel harmony is a change in one or more features of a vowel brought on by its proximity to another vowel or (less commonly) consonant. In its strictest form, there are two sets of vowels and each word can only contain vowels from one set. (In practice, there are often vowels which are "neutral" with regard to vowel harmony and can appear in either type of word.)

So, for instance, /a/ being realised as [æ] in words with /i/ in them would be a kind of vowel harmony (specifically, a form of metaphony). But if there is a variant of /a/ which occurs unpredictably (and has to be marked in the orthography), then what you really have is a four-vowel system, not a three-vowel system.
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Atluk
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Atluk » 2016-07-19, 17:20

linguoboy wrote:
Atluk wrote:Well, Idk what you would call this kind of vowel harmony, but when /a/ becomes [æ], represented by <ä>, /i/ must be pronounced as [ɛ] (or possibly) [e].

Yeah, that's not quite how vowel harmony works.

Vowel harmony is a change in one or more features of a vowel brought on by its proximity to another vowel or (less commonly) consonant. In its strictest form, there are two sets of vowels and each word can only contain vowels from one set. (In practice, there are often vowels which are "neutral" with regard to vowel harmony and can appear in either type of word.)

So, for instance, /a/ being realised as [æ] in words with /i/ in them would be a kind of vowel harmony (specifically, a form of metaphony). But if there is a variant of /a/ which occurs unpredictably (and has to be marked in the orthography), then what you really have is a four-vowel system, not a three-vowel system.


So how would you rearrange it?

Have [ɑ] and [ɛ] together as one set with [æ] and [i] part of another set?

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby linguoboy » 2016-07-19, 21:45

Actually, I think it works if we think of it not as full-blown vowel harmony but as two forms of metaphony operating more-or-less simultaneously.

So first you have an i-affection rule which fronts /a/ to [æ] when it precedes /i/.
Then you have an a-affection rules which lowers /i/ to [e]~[ɛ] when it follows /a/.

So take a theoretical word *padik in you language. It would undergo the following changes:

padik > pædik [i-affection]
pædik > pædek [a-affection]

Given how I've formulated the rules, there's no reason why they couldn't apply in the reverse order (i.e., a-affection before i-affection). The way I've laid them out above seems more natural to me, but you could have reasons for doing it differently.

Some questions to answer:

1. What's the scope of each process? For instance, if you had a word *padasatarik, would every /a/ become fronted? (That would give more of a "vowel harmony" type result.) Or may just the /a/ in the syllable immediately preceding, i.e. *padasatærek
2. Is each process unidirectional? So, for instance, does *padik yield *pædek, but *pidak remains *pidak? Other possibilities would be:

i-affection bidirectional, a-affection unidirectional (progressive): *pidak > *pidæk
i-affection bidirectional, a-affection unidirectional (regressive): *pidak > *pidak
i-affection unidirectional (progressive), a-affection bidirectional: *pidak > *pedæk
i-affection unidirectional (regressive), a-affection bidirectional: *pidak > *pedak

Whatever you settle on, I would recommend applying the same processes to /u/ as well. So i-affection would yield [y] and a-affection would yield [o]~[ɔ]. And potentially both could apply and yield [ø]~[œ]. So going back to something like our original example:

padusik > pædysik [i-affection]
pædysik > pædøsek [a-affection]

You could indicate these changes orthographically as an aide-memoire, but it wouldn't be necessary as long as you knew what the rules were and could apply them spontaneously (which would be the case for any fluent speakers of this language).
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Atluk » 2016-07-19, 22:27

linguoboy wrote:Actually, I think it works if we think of it not as full-blown vowel harmony but as two forms of metaphony operating more-or-less simultaneously.

So first you have an i-affection rule which fronts /a/ to [æ] when it precedes /i/.
Then you have an a-affection rules which lowers /i/ to [e]~[ɛ] when it follows /a/.

So take a theoretical word *padik in you language. It would undergo the following changes:

padik > pædik [i-affection]
pædik > pædek [a-affection]

Given how I've formulated the rules, there's no reason why they couldn't apply in the reverse order (i.e., a-affection before i-affection). The way I've laid them out above seems more natural to me, but you could have reasons for doing it differently.

Some questions to answer:

1. What's the scope of each process? For instance, if you had a word *padasatarik, would every /a/ become fronted? (That would give more of a "vowel harmony" type result.) Or may just the /a/ in the syllable immediately preceding, i.e. *padasatærek
2. Is each process unidirectional? So, for instance, does *padik yield *pædek, but *pidak remains *pidak? Other possibilities would be:

i-affection bidirectional, a-affection unidirectional (progressive): *pidak > *pidæk
i-affection bidirectional, a-affection unidirectional (regressive): *pidak > *pidak
i-affection unidirectional (progressive), a-affection bidirectional: *pidak > *pedæk
i-affection unidirectional (regressive), a-affection bidirectional: *pidak > *pedak

Whatever you settle on, I would recommend applying the same processes to /u/ as well. So i-affection would yield [y] and a-affection would yield [o]~[ɔ]. And potentially both could apply and yield [ø]~[œ]. So going back to something like our original example:

padusik > pædysik [i-affection]
pædysik > pædøsek [a-affection]

You could indicate these changes orthographically as an aide-memoire, but it wouldn't be necessary as long as you knew what the rules were and could apply them spontaneously (which would be the case for any fluent speakers of this language).


Interesting. I don't plan to use this in my current project as I found a vowel system I like, but I think I will use this for my next project.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Atluk » 2016-07-20, 18:19

I've finally settled some things for my conlang after experimenting, but I have run into a problem.

Nãmãsan uses nasal harmony, which the first vowel that directly succeeds a nasal consonant is nasalized (eg. ã) and the nasalization continues for every other vowel after it until it gets to the end of a word or there is a blocker. The blocker is any consonant that is not a nasal consonant, semivowel, or liquid.

The only problem is that I have a word 'mizhuk' [miðɯk] in which /i/ is not nasalized even though it comes after /m/. What could be a reason for this exception? I plan to use the word as a pronoun.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby linguoboy » 2016-07-20, 18:54

Atluk wrote:The only problem is that I have a word 'mizhuk' [miðɯk] in which /i/ is not nasalized even though it comes after /m/. What could be a reason for this exception? I plan to use the word as a pronoun.

There doesn't need to be a reason. Sometimes words are simply exceptional.

Depending on how stress works in your language, that could provide a reason. Pronouns are frequently less stressed than words around them (since, by definition, they generally represent known information rather than new) and less-stressed words may be exceptions to otherwise widespread phonological rules.

Another possibility is that the initial /m/ in mizhuk is a recent development. Historically, there was another initial consonant here (or none at all), but that changed (due to analogy with other pronouns, the environments in which this word usually occurs, etc.) and so speakers aren't used to applying the rule to this word.
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Wario Toad 32 » 2016-07-25, 22:27

Are you still developing it?

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Atluk » 2016-07-26, 22:42

Wario Toad 32 wrote:Are you still developing it?


I am, but I started over with a different vocabulary.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Losam » 2016-07-31, 16:35

Talking about grammar, which comes first? For example, in my first conlang that I working on, I'll start with alphabet and after that, pronouns (personal, demonstrative and so on).

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby linguoboy » 2016-08-01, 1:17

Losam wrote:Talking about grammar, which comes first? For example, in my first conlang that I working on, I'll start with alphabet and after that, pronouns (personal, demonstrative and so on).

Do you mean what comes first when building the grammar or do you mean which comes first, grammar or phonology?

(I would say that either way, it depends on the language.)
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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Losam » 2016-08-01, 23:39

Phonology comes before Grammar, right? But how about Grammar? Could be an alphabet and after pronouns? What you can suggest?

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby linguoboy » 2016-08-02, 4:25

Losam wrote:Phonology comes before Grammar, right?

Not necessarily. You could easily decide, "I want to make a default VSO fluid-S polysynthetic language" and start mapping out which categories you plan to inflect for before you make a single choice about what combinations of sounds will be present in your language.

Losam wrote:But how about Grammar? Could be an alphabet and after pronouns? What you can suggest?

Alphabets have nothing to do with grammar. They should probably be the last thing you create, since they require a pretty solid knowledge of the language's phonology and external history to get right.

Pronouns don't play a prominent role in all languages. Look at pro-drop languages for examples of how easily they can be dispensed with much of the time.
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rubs

Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby rubs » 2016-08-15, 15:57

Well i'm still working on my conlang;
as for the phonology well i'm getting somewhere certain consonants i want to have that are supposedly impossible,
and I also want a large click inventory.
can you have unvoiced click sounds now of course learning how to pronounce them.

is their some sort of app or something which i can explore all the types of sound that have already been documented to exist. :para:

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby Atluk » 2016-08-16, 17:52

rubs wrote:Well i'm still working on my conlang;
as for the phonology well i'm getting somewhere certain consonants i want to have that are supposedly impossible,
and I also want a large click inventory.
can you have unvoiced click sounds now of course learning how to pronounce them.

is their some sort of app or something which i can explore all the types of sound that have already been documented to exist. :para:


I use this link below. It's an interactive IPA chart where you can click the different phones and a voice pronounces the sound.

It does have some clicks, but I doubt it has every sound.

http://www.ipachart.com

rubs

Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby rubs » 2016-08-16, 22:34

Atluk wrote:
rubs wrote:Well i'm still working on my conlang;
as for the phonology well i'm getting somewhere certain consonants i want to have that are supposedly impossible,
and I also want a large click inventory.
can you have unvoiced click sounds now of course learning how to pronounce them.

is their some sort of app or something which i can explore all the types of sound that have already been documented to exist. :para:


I use this link below. It's an interactive IPA chart where you can click the different phones and a voice pronounces the sound.

It does have some clicks, but I doubt it has every sound.

http://www.ipachart.com


Something a bit more complete: I want to know what kind of features, I can add to my language and have them sound nice and be relatively thorough about it.
It also ommits some of the distinctions I want to make.
for example linguolabial click.

Well I want to my a language with extremely polysynthetic inflectional verbs, any clue on how to do that possibly by some sort of gradual process.

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby linguoboy » 2016-08-18, 17:14

rubs wrote:Well I want to my a language with extremely polysynthetic inflectional verbs, any clue on how to do that possibly by some sort of gradual process.

I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Do you want models of how verbal polysynthesis could arise from more analytic structures?
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rubs

Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby rubs » 2016-08-18, 17:56

linguoboy wrote:
rubs wrote:Well I want to my a language with extremely polysynthetic inflectional verbs, any clue on how to do that possibly by some sort of gradual process.

I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Do you want models of how verbal polysynthesis could arise from more analytic structures?

Possibly yes, that'd be quite interesting,
Just looking how I could build up the sort of grammar in a more step by step manner.
Essentially yes, would this be a good tool for building a polysynthetic language more generally,
[I also want polysynthetic nouns, ]

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Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby linguoboy » 2016-08-18, 19:48

rubs wrote:[I also want polysynthetic nouns, ]

"Polysynthetic nouns" are generally just handled as nominalised verbal phrases, IME.

Here's an article showing how polysynthesis can develop from a more analytic verbal complex, with examples from French: http://www.academia.edu/2000636/Grammaticalization_of_polysynthesis_with_special_reference_to_Spoken_French_.
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rubs

Re: General Conlang Discussion

Postby rubs » 2016-08-19, 0:26

linguoboy wrote:
rubs wrote:[I also want polysynthetic nouns, ]

"Polysynthetic nouns" are generally just handled as nominalised verbal phrases, IME.

Here's an article showing how polysynthesis can develop from a more analytic verbal complex, with examples from French: http://www.academia.edu/2000636/Grammaticalization_of_polysynthesis_with_special_reference_to_Spoken_French_.


I’ve read it as of now.


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