Short questions

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Mehrdad
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Re: Short questions

Postby Mehrdad » 2016-01-24, 11:19

My pleasure ,dear friends.

Michael wrote: how to make "than" comparisons with از and تا,


Please give me some sample sentences with "than" that you have problem with their Farsi translation.


For start , can you guess what this mean ?

میان ماه من تا ماه گردون؛ تفاوت از زمین تا آسمان است.


َ

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Re: Short questions

Postby Limagne » 2016-01-24, 16:32

Michael wrote:OK then, disregard what I said. :P I have a question myself. I used Thackston's An Introduction to Persian as a raw beginner, and he did vaguely explain how to make "than" comparisons with از and تا, but I'm still confused as to when to use which prepositions.


تا is used when the object of the comparison is governed by a preposition.

کتاب های بهتر به من داد تا به او
He gave better books to me than to him

به او بیشتر اعتماد می کند تا به من
He trusts him more than me

او از عنکبوت بیشتر می ترسد تا از سوسک
He's more afraid of spiders than cockroaches

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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-01-31, 16:45

سلام

Can anyone tell me when و in the meaning of "AND" is pronounced "o" and when it is pronounced "va". Is there a rule ?

پدر و پسر
pedar-o-pesar or pedar va pesar or can we say both? How about any colloquial versus formal / written form? Any specific rule?

Thank you so much.

Oliver

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Re: Short questions

Postby Michael » 2016-01-31, 17:56

I've noticed that o is preferred with words of indigenous origin, such as the pedar-o pesar that you referenced, while va tends to be used a lot more with Arabic loanwords, although pedar va-pesar isn't entirely unheard of. However, o is much more common than the Arabic conjunction in speech, and the only case where I'm 100% sure that va is never acceptable is when linking parts of a compound number, i.e. ۲۴۷ devist-o chehel-o haft.
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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-01-31, 18:10

Thanks Michael!

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Re: Short questions

Postby eskandar » 2016-02-01, 21:08

Michael wrote:I've noticed that o is preferred with words of indigenous origin, such as the pedar-o pesar that you referenced, while va tends to be used a lot more with Arabic loanwords, although pedar va-pesar isn't entirely unheard of.
It has nothing to do with words of 'indigenous' vs. Arabic origin. و is pronounced as 'o' when linking two words together in a compound (like pedar o pesar, father and son) and it's used just as frequently with words of Arabic origin (لهو و لعب lahv o la'b, or رطب و یابس ratb o yaabes, for example).

It's difficult for me to articulate a specific rule for pronunciation--I don't know that one exists-- but generally و is pronounced as 'o' in colloquial speech, except at the beginning of a phrase, or after a pause, when it would be pronounced 'va'. It can also be pronounced 'va' for emphasis. In poetry it is ALWAYS 'o' unless it is the first word of a verse. In reading prose out loud you would generally pronounce it as 'va' except in compounds.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Short questions

Postby Michael » 2016-02-02, 4:06

eskandar wrote:
Michael wrote:I've noticed that o is preferred with words of indigenous origin, such as the pedar-o pesar that you referenced, while va tends to be used a lot more with Arabic loanwords, although pedar va-pesar isn't entirely unheard of.
It has nothing to do with words of 'indigenous' vs. Arabic origin. و is pronounced as 'o' when linking two words together in a compound (like pedar o pesar, father and son) and it's used just as frequently with words of Arabic origin (لهو و لعب lahv o la'b, or رطب و یابس ratb o yaabes, for example).

Thanks for the correction. (Did my use of "indigenous" come across as offensive, by the way?) Just comes to show how poor my proficiency in the spoken language remains. I have learned such Arabesque idioms as بطوع و رغبت betow’ o raghbat ("willingly") and قلع و قمع ghal’ o gham’ ("extermination, stamping out"), and did take them into consideration before submitting my post, but I was under the assumption that they were exceptions to this made-up rule of mine since they're fixed idioms and not two random, linked nouns that both happen to be of Arabic origin. But I digress.

I'll leave the explaining to you, Limagne and Mehrdâd from now on. As tempting as it is for me to dish out advice to fellow learners in need, my level is still far too low for me to be doing that.
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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-02-02, 13:32

Michael your input is as important as anyone's else. Because it generates a tremendous exchange of thoughts and information which is shared throughout this forum. As a beginner it is extremely helpful to me.

Oliver

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Re: Short questions

Postby eskandar » 2016-02-02, 20:26

I agree with Oliver above - no need to refrain from explaining, your contributions can be very helpful for other learners and even if you're wrong, it provokes discussion and can be a learning exercise for you as well (such as in this case). Your use of the word 'indigenous' was not offensive, I just put it in scare quotes because I'm wary about what it connotes for Persian-- it's a complicated matter because we have words of originally Iranic origin that were 'Arabicized' (معرب) like فیل, from پیل , not to mention Persian words coined from Arabic roots which do not themselves exist in Arabic, or whose use differs significantly from how they're used in Arabic, and so on, all of which complicate the issue of what should be counted as indigenous or not. But that's neither here nor there. :) Anyway, الحاصل (as we'd say in literary Persian, using an Arabic word with its definite article!) you have now correctly understood that idioms containing Arabic-origin words like قلع و قمع are not exceptions; they're treated the same as any other.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-02-05, 13:27

سلام

Questions about "Preposition râ (Accusative case)"

Please bear in mind that I am a beginner. I want to ask about the use of râ ( را )

I've read and I understand examples such as:

I saw a man (no use of râ) versus I saw him (use of râ)
I brought a book (no use of râ) versus I brought the book (use of râ)

but those are short sentences.

But I want to write full (longer) sentences and this is where I have difficulties.

For instance if I write:

يک زن در دکان است (a woman is in a store)

Can I say ?
زن را در دکان است (the woman is in a store -> if we are referring to a specific woman we identified previously in some previous text not shown here)

Then let's imagine that the woman (this specific woman we talked about earlier in the text - again this text which talked about her is not shown here) has the habit of going to a specific store. We are writing about this event: the woman is in this specific store.

Can I say ?
زن را در دکان را است

My confusion comes from the fact that when I search about the use of râ I find the fact that is it a grammatical rule which I understand (COD - complement d'object direct in French / Accusative case) but also the fact that it is used to "describe" something "specific".

I have so much to learn. Your help is so valuable. Thank you so much in advance.

Oliver

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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-02-05, 16:17

سلام

Question about the verbs رفتن and ترک کردن

1) Can both be said ?

* a) مرد از دکان رفت
b) مرد از دکان ترک کرد

(The man left [from] the store)

* not to be mistaken with " مرد به دکان رفت " (the man went to the store)

2) Is the " از " mandatory each time we say we leave from a place (versus the English "I left the store - "Elvis left the building" :) ?

Again, many thanks.

Oliver

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Re: Short questions

Postby Mehrdad » 2016-02-06, 12:22

Dear Oliver,
You have to search & learn about Transitive & Intransitive verbs. (افعال متعدی و لازم)
But I try to give a short explanation. We have two types of verbs : Transitive & Intransitive

1. Intransitive verbs don't have direct subject such as است and شد and رفتن
2. râ is the sign for direct subject
3. râ Never comes with Lazem verbs (neither for subject nor for anything else such as known/unknown nouns)
(We used to say this : فعل لازم , مفعول, لازم نداره )
(You can also say : فعل لازم, را, لازم نداره )
So we Never say زن را در دکان است because of its verb that is Intransitive .

A. Transitive verbs, CAN have direct subject such as خریدن and پوشیدن
B. They can use râ with their direct subjects OR NOT.
Now you say , what's the difference between these sentences:
من کتاب را خریدم
من کتاب خریدم
As you might have guessed , in the first sentence THE book is a specific/known book (I bought the book).
So, if a Transitive verb, uses râ with it's subject , It has a Known/Specific Direct subject.

And in the second sentence, book is an unknown book (I bought (some/a) book) (Note that it's not even known how many books I bought, one or more.)
So again, if a Transitive verb,doesn't use râ with its subject , It shows that, its Direct subject is Unknown.

Bonus: colloquial pronunciation of râ:
râ has 3 versions !

Version 1: Simple O
râ is usually pronounced as a simple o placed on the last letter of the preceding word:
کتابُ خریدم
ماشینُ دیدی؟
But when the preceding word ends with الف and او or ُ ( Such as پلو /آهو /کتابها) we don't use this version, because it's hard to pronounce.

Version 2: Simple Ro
Same as o and is very common.
کتاب رُ خریدم
ماشین رُ خریدم
کتابها رُ خوندم
آهو رُ نجات دادم

Version 3: Ro with َ (a)
In order to emphasize that the preceding word is Known & Specific we put َ on that word:
کتابَ رُ خریدم
ماشینَ رُ دیدی؟ (Did you see THE car ?)
آهواَ رُ نجات دادم ( obviously ,they've had a history with that gazelle)


Here I ask other friends to provide a good resource on this important subject and also correct me, if needed.

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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-02-06, 12:53

Dear Mehrdad thank you! My method confused me because of the 'specific' aspect they were talking about versus the grammar rule which I should have stayed with instead of going (thinking) wild ! I have a tendency to do so: making it more complicated than it is. It is clear now for me when to use it or not to use it.

I really love the bonus section. Nowhere I could find such detailed explanations ! Thank you so much for always being so specific in your answers and stating all the different ways something can be said and written. If you go on like this you need to write and publish a study book for beginners :)

Many many thanks to you.

Oliver

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Re: Short questions

Postby Mehrdad » 2016-02-06, 19:10

Thank you so much Oliver for your kind complement .I don't deserve such praise.

buman wrote:* a) مرد از دکان رفت
b) مرد از دکان ترک کرد


Again the same problem of Lazem / Moteadi verbs.
رفتن is a Lazem verb. It doesn't use مفعول بی واسطه but it may have مفعول با واسطه
واسطه is: از / به / برای ...
so we should say من رفتم (no subject at all)
مرد به / از دکان رفت (indirect subject that needs some prepositions)
من به تهران رفتم
من از تهران خواهم رفت
من به دنبال عشقم رفتم
من برای زنده ماندن از اینجا رفتم
We never use را with رفتن .


ترک کردن is a Moteadi verb. It may use direct subject (مفعول بی واسطه) that is always accompanied with را
so you should write : مرد دکان را ترک کرد
پرواز شماره ی فلان تهران را به مقصد لندن ترک کرد
پرواز شماره ی بهمان از پاریس هم اکنون به زمین نشست (why? because نشستن is a Lazem verb) (Felân=X , Bahmân=Y)

Good Luck.

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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-02-07, 15:48

!مهرداد, مرسی

Oliver

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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-02-07, 22:27

Help for the indefinite enclitic ی with -e

The University of Texas in Autin's web site writes:

1) .علی پسر خوبی است
ali pesar-e khubi ast
“Ali is a good boy.”

Then they say: Since the indefinite enclitic ی is mobile, in the above sentences it may be placed at the end of the nouns or the adjectives:

2) .علی پسری خوب است
ali pesar-i khub ast
“Ali is a good boy.”

a) Is #2 still in use ?
b) Does this mean that we then loose the " -e " in the #2 example ?

Following my studies, I wrote:

"he has a warm bread" (that he bought at the bakery...)
Is this correct ? (with -e not written) - >" او نان گرمی دارد "

Or

is this correct ? (with no -e) -> " او نانی گرم دارد "

Or can I use: " او يک نان گرم دارد " (it doesn't seem that I can, unless I write something like " در دکان يک زن بود " (in the store was a woman) BUT then could I also say:
" در دکان زنی بود "

Thanks again for all your help. I love the Persian language so much.

Oliver

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Re: Short questions

Postby Mehrdad » 2016-02-09, 7:02

buman wrote:
1) .علی پسر خوبی است
ali pesar-e khubi ast
2) .علی پسری خوب است
ali pesar-i khub ast

a) Is #2 still in use ?
b) Does this mean that we then loose the " -e " in the #2 example ?


is this correct ? (with no -e) -> " او نانی گرم دارد "

Or can I use: " او يک نانِ گرم دارد "
(it doesn't seem that I can, unless I write something like " در دکان يک زن بود " (in the store was a woman) BUT then could I also say:
" در دکان زنی بود "
Oliver



The answer to ALL above questions is YES.

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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-02-09, 18:25

! خیلی ممنون

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Re: Short questions

Postby buman » 2016-02-11, 17:55

Help understanding the pronunciation of the letter ق

Eskandar, on this very forum had explained the following:

When it appears at the beginning of the word (eg. قربان or غذا) or following a consonant, it sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_uvular_stop, but in between two vowels (eg. آقا or لاغر) it sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_uvular_fricative.

So I listened and in the fist case it sounds like a G (like in guerre or gare in French) and in the second case it sounds like a srong French R (like in rire or (gue)rre ).

But then there is this word: " انقلاب " (today's being February 11 but that's another topic!) and on Forvo.com I keep on playing the word and I hear the sound V (please try to seach for the word in Forvo). Even here: http://www.persianpod101.com/persian-vocabulary-lists/revolution-day?utm_source=EmailDirect.com&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Anniversary+of+the+Islamic+Revolution+Holiday+2016+Campaign+-+FA# the sound is like the sound of the English / French letter V

So I am really lost now how to now pronounce words with the letter ق. Can anyone please help with simple words / examples / transliteration in English or in French ? Any other English, French, Spanish sound we could compare ق with ? What is correct in all this ?!

Thank you so much.
Oliver

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Re: Short questions

Postby Mehrdad » 2016-02-13, 10:15

Je pense que tu peux prononcer toutes ces lettres (ق / غ) comme "R" dans le mot français " Ravi " ( mais avec un peu plus faible R ! ) ( Quel que soit leur place dans des mots) .
En fait, la prononciation du mot " Ravi " est très bien comme le mot « قوی " .


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