gay - hamjens baz?

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Shannenms
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Postby Shannenms » 2008-01-04, 0:23

There is no love in any of these bizarre sexes:Incest, homosexuality, and many similar things.
It doesn't matter who is in favor of these obscenities, whether Hafez or Rumi or someone else, this is because keeping female virginity before marriage is above all.
It is very common among the Sufis to be gay, hence Rumi was so!!!!!!!!!
I can't understand how this desire between two men or women can be explained, these such odd relationships spring from a corrupted soul, to be frank.
There is no female circumcision in Iran, I think it is done in Egypt.
These things are only abusive desires and nothing else, and whoever practices it musb be hospitalized.

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Postby Shannenms » 2008-01-04, 0:33

By the way Proust remanied gay until he died.
Although I love his works, I hate him when he begins to talk about some gay characters in his book(I recommend you to read it). I think he was object/acted upon/bottom or whatever English may say in his relations, that may be the source of that self-hate that you are talking about.

Just out of curiosity, I am interested as to why you are talking fervently in favor of the gays, there is nothing special about them.

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Postby Sisyphe » 2008-01-04, 1:01

On what grounds do you say that there is no love in homosexual relationships? Keep in mind that homosexuality is a sexual orientation, obviously meaning that there is an emotional/romantic component to having a homosexual orientation. I respect your opinion that gays have 'corrupted souls', but what has corrupted the soul? And how do you 'know' that it has been corrupted? Personally, I don't believe in a soul, so that's why I ask for the explanation of your reasoning.

It's ironic that you've conceded that males in Iran are apt to engage in homosexual sex, yet you say that whoever practices them should be hospitalized...Would you say the same of people in your country? Isn't it clear that homosexuality is ingrained into Persian history and heritage and that this has only changed in its visibility in our time?

I believe that society is the source of the self-hate that Proust's quote portrayed. It is for the same reason, for instance, that as most wanted said, gays are not honest about their sexual orientation because of the social repercussions that this would bring about. Where are social repercussions from? - Obviously from society, not from a simple sex act.

BTW, I'm gay. I don't think I am speaking fervently of gays, just fairly. Every person I have ever met has something special about them, and this applies to groups of people as well. I am glad that I am able to see this, because it is this very belief that has prompted me to express interest in your country, language and culture, despite the fact that so many people in my country look at Iran in an extremely negative light. Hate and discrimination is hate and discrimination no matter who it is against - I am dismayed that you don't see it that way.
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Postby Shannenms » 2008-01-04, 1:53

Ooops I didn't know that you are gay, sorry I did mean no offence. :oops:

There is no love in gayism(correct my english please if this term is erroneous) because the way view it, as I explained, is a relation of someone who forces and the other who tolerates, raper and raped, but it seems to me that this is not so, specifically in their sexual activities there is no actor and aced on, and they do the same obscenity to each other, I mean the actor is at the other time is acted on, and the other way around. The whole of this corrupted story is against the nature, nature of human.

This kind of relation is not productive, suppose that all the men in a society are gay what would happen to this country after 20 years? Your theory must solve this easy problem.

I am ignorant, tell me how there is love and real affection, the same as my mother loves me, exists in this gay relation.
I meant there is nothing special about gay realationship, because when I compare it with incest I find both are the same, and unquestionably wrong, erroneous, bad, most-hated, all coming from a corrupted mind not soul.
If your theory were to be right it would be applicable to any other bizarre sexual relationship, which I think would surely fail.

Every man who practices gay, whether Persian or foreigner, or my father(which I hope it would not be the case :D ) MUST be hospitalized.
By the way, if gayism is only a sexual orientation, do you accept to have such a relation with your brother?

I can only speak about gayism not lesbianism because I have no such affairs, never seen around, never thought of, so when you talk about homosexuality it makes it difficult for me to explain it.

I know my English is horrible, Please correct me if I am wrong.
Again, I don't really really want to offend you, so if I told something insulting please forgive me.

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Postby alijsh » 2008-01-04, 6:21

most-wanted wrote:It is absolutly wrong to say that we have gays in Afghanistan.I haven't seen anyone who loves to have sexual relationship with a man being a man.
We don't have the word for that like most of countries in Africa.

We have words but they are slang: kuni, kunde, kunkon, kunkeš (sorry this topic demands to write words that we normally consider impolite). As you know, the relation is subject-object (sorry Sisyphe, I still prefer these words. They fit the relation we are witnessed here). the object is referred to as kuni (kunde is not the common word. It's normally used as a curseword (fohsh)). We don't necessarily use a word for the subject but they can be referred to as kunkon, kunbâz.

most-wanted wrote:But in these countries no doubt there are some peoople who are losers and wants to have sexual relationship with Children.Those are called Bachabaaz in Afghanistan or maybe Iran.They dressed them in girls cloths to dance for them.This story is clearly told by Khalid Hoseini's book.The kite runner.

yes, we also say baccebâz. I don't know if they dress them or not but this one is really really considered bad. People will certainly take a serious measure if they notice it (kicking him yourself or with your friends, calling the police, etc.). The offender can be even sentenced to death if he has done it with several poor boys. I'm 100% agree with punishing them. They have caused serious mental problems to poor boys.

Sisyphe: People don't call the police if they catch you having sex with another of your age but there will be soon lots of rumors about you. However, it depends on the person. Many people don't tell about it to others and try to talk with you and your partner and advise you to abandon this habit. They try to support and watch you for a while.
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Postby alijsh » 2008-01-04, 6:32

Shannenms wrote:There is no love in gayism

I'm not a gay but I can understand that there can exist a love between the gay partners. You are considering the homosexuality as is normally found in Iran: subject-object. As Sisyphe enlightened us, it's not usually the case in the West. So I can think of a love.

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Postby Sisyphe » 2008-01-04, 22:05

As Alijsh has mentioned shannenms, please use Western sexuality within the context that I defined it. If you think of Western homosexuality within the context of Persian homosexuality, there is no way you would be able to draw a conclusion that mirrors reality here. So I will reiterate for you that homosexuality in the Western World is not at all a mere abusive sexual relationship - far from it! - here, gay partners are often involved in committed relationships that are based on love, not lust. Not to say that they don't get sexual! :lol: I can't fathom homosexuality in Iran as I've seen it described in this thread. :ohno: It certainly doesn't seem like something anyone would want to pursue...so I am not offended at all - this is probably the source of your preconceptions.

I believe that reproduction is definitely an important thing, but animals do that too, you know. What is different about humans is that we are individual people with individual talents and can individually bring about innovations of all sorts. Gay individuals, both in Western culture, as well as in your own culture have tremendously changed the course of history and impact the way in which we see the world today. I do not feel that I need to address the issue of how it would be if everyone were gay, simply for the reason that that is not a feasible scenario. :lol: Gays have always been a sexual minority; it's nature's way. I would never have a sexual or romantic relationship with my brother - I'm not attracted to him in either way whatsoever. I don't know anyone personally that could say that they are attracted to their brother...

I assume that your opinion is shared by many other people in Iran...so what do you think should happen to gays upon being hospitalized? I personally can't think of anything that could/should be done there.

Also...Thanks for explaining what is done if a homosexual relationship is suspected, Alijsh.
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Postby Shannenms » 2008-01-04, 22:06

alijsh wrote:We have words but they are slang: kuni, kunde, kunkon, kunkeš (sorry this topic demands to write words that we normally consider impolite). As you know, the relation is subject-object (sorry Sisyphe, I still prefer these words. They fit the relation we are witnessed here). the object is referred to as kuni (kunde is not the common word. It's normally used as a curseword (fohsh)). We don't necessarily use a word for the subject but they can be referred to as kunkon, kunbâz.



:D :lol: :o :) :P :!: :!: :!:
The first time I read this I got surprised to death!
I laughed 1000000 times, so funny!!!!!!!!!!
I think you should have worked with Ahmad Shamloo on Ketabe Kooche!
I don't know why our friend avoided the reply and left the thread, I think he was angry with me, sorry!!
But I still think there is no love between two gays, they are just fakers, abusers. Can you even imagine that you may love a guy :D , I myself can't think about it at all!!!!!!!!!

There are no such words in Persian because there has never been its culture in Iran.
I think I can't understand Sisyphe, guessing you are like me in this matter.

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Postby Sisyphe » 2008-01-04, 22:12

shannenms wrote:But I still think there is no love between two gays, they are just fakers, abusers. Can you even imagine that you may love a guy :D , I myself can't think about it at all!!!!!!!!!


Well, you've said it yourself...the concept doesn't exist within the confines of your culture. But it would be erroneous to believe that just because it 'doesn't exist', according to you, in your own culture, that this would reflect the culture of every other society.
I think I can't understand Sisyphe, guessing you are like me in this matter.


I'm not guessing here. I'm telling you how it is in the Western World, and I'm asking questions and getting answers (thanks ;)) about how it is in Iran.

BTW, as long as you have things to tell me about homosexuality in Iran, I will be listening, and I will reply. I'm not easily offended and it's definitely a subject that interests me, since I hope to go to Iran one day in the future. :)
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Postby Shannenms » 2008-01-04, 22:34

I think you are very open-minded, let me give you a sketch of what I have realized from your post: Homosexuality is only a sexual-oriented behavior, being utterly meaningless outside this sexual scope, then what we are talking about here is just an intercourse which is by chance about two men. If there is only intercourse matter, which is completely anal, how can you distinguish it from the anal attraction to a girl, nothing is changed only the way you view what intercourse is has changed.
This is completely obscene.
BTW, I didn't understand well: you say that on this account that animals may practice homosexuality we are allowed to do this?
I don't want to offend anyone. I love you Sisyphe because you write English very good, and is instructive to me!!!!!!
Tell me if I wrong,
Please correct my English,
Thanks.

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Postby Sisyphe » 2008-01-04, 23:22

shannenms wrote:being utterly meaningless outside this sexual scope, then what we are talking about here is just an intercourse which is by chance about two men.


Hmm...did you catch this in my second to last post? :? If you didn't understand, I was trying to tell you that in the West, our concept of sexual orientation extends past sex. I think thats reasonable...after all, what is it that causes us to have sex? - Isn't it partly attraction? - And attraction opens up an entirely new horizon to look into.

Here is what I said, again:
Sisyphe wrote:So I will reiterate for you that homosexuality in the Western World is not at all a mere abusive sexual relationship - far from it! - here, gay partners are often involved in committed relationships that are based on love, not lust. Not to say that they don't get sexual!


BTW, I didn't understand well: you say that on this account that animals may practice homosexuality we are allowed to do this?


No, you mentioned how the world would be if all humans were gay, and I basically responded that I don't feel that I have to explain that scenario because it's simply not possible. Then I said that human intelligence is so great that we are able to transcend the mere 'be born - reproduce - die' cycle that the animals go through. In other words, gays have other contributions to society other than reproduction - in both of our cultures alike.


Here are my corrections to your last message, as I understood it:
Shannenms wrote:I think you are very open-minded, let me give you a sketch of what I have realized from your post: Homosexuality is only a sexually-oriented behavior, being utterly meaningless outside [s]this[/s] the sexual scope, [s]then[/s] so what we are talking about here is just [s]an[/s] intercourse which is by chance about two men. If there is only [s]intercourse matter[/s] the issue of intercourse left, which is [s]completely[/s] exclusively anal, how can you distinguish it from the anal attraction to a girl[s],[/s]? Nothing [s]is[/s] has changed, only the way you view what intercourse is has changed.
This is completely obscene.
BTW, I didn't understand well: you say that [s]on this account that[/s] because animals [s]may[/s] practice homosexuality , we [s]are[/s] should be allowed to do this?
I don't want to offend anyone. I [s]love[/s] like you Sisyphe because you write English very [s]good[s] well, and itis instructive to me!!!!!!
Tell me if I amwrong,
Please correct my English,
Thanks.


Do you want me to PM my corrections next time?
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Postby Shannenms » 2008-01-05, 0:18

Sisyphe wrote:
shannenms wrote:being utterly meaningless outside this sexual scope, then what we are talking about here is just an intercourse which is by chance about two men.


Hmm...did you catch this in my second to last post? :? If you didn't understand, I was trying to tell you that in the West, our concept of sexual orientation extends past sex. I think thats reasonable...after all, what is it that causes us to have sex? - Isn't it partly attraction? - And attraction opens up an entirely new horizon to look into.

Here is what I said, again:
Sisyphe wrote:So I will reiterate for you that homosexuality in the Western World is not at all a mere abusive sexual relationship - far from it! - here, gay partners are often involved in committed relationships that are based on love, not lust. Not to say that they don't get sexual!


BTW, I didn't understand well: you say that on this account that animals may practice homosexuality we are allowed to do this?


No, you mentioned how the world would be if all humans were gay, and I basically responded that I don't feel that I have to explain that scenario because it's simply not possible. Then I said that human intelligence is so great that we are able to transcend the mere 'be born - reproduce - die' cycle that the animals go through. In other words, gays have other contributions to society other than reproduction - in both of our cultures alike.


Here are my corrections to your last message, as I understood it:
Shannenms wrote:I think you are very open-minded, let me give you a sketch of what I have realized from your post: Homosexuality is only a sexually-oriented behavior, being utterly meaningless outside [s]this[/s] the sexual scope, [s]then[/s] so what we are talking about here is just [s]an[/s] intercourse which is by chance about two men. If there is only [s]intercourse matter[/s] the issue of intercourse left, which is [s]completely[/s] exclusively anal, how can you distinguish it from the anal attraction to a girl[s],[/s]? Nothing [s]is[/s] has changed, only the way you view what intercourse is has changed.
This is completely obscene.
BTW, I didn't understand well: you say that [s]on this account that[/s] because animals [s]may[/s] practice homosexuality , we [s]are[/s] should be allowed to do this?
I don't want to offend anyone. I [s]love[/s] like you Sisyphe because you write English very [s]good[s] well, and itis instructive to me!!!!!!
Tell me if I amwrong,
Please correct my English,
Thanks.


Do you want me to PM my corrections next time?


I like talking with you because it improves my perception about homosexuality and English.
I welcome if you PM me the corrections.
1-Do gays think about anything other than sex when they meet each other? If they do, they are not gays.
2-How can you justify that there is love not lust?
3-What contribution do gays to the society, other than corrupting it?
4-Don't you think that your thought about homosexuality is not able to answer a simple question of reproduction?
5-How is this attraction?
6-Invitation of other people to be gay is part of this community?

Thanks, Please send the corrections as a PM.

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Postby Sisyphe » 2008-01-05, 1:21

shannems wrote:1-Do gays think about anything other than sex when they meet each other?


Why would you think that? :shock: Of course we do.

shannenms wrote:If they do, they are not gays.


Why do you say that?

shannenms wrote:2-How can you justify that there is love not lust?


Gay couples abound, at least here in California where I live [i.e. I personally know people like this]. They are involved in committed relationships that are not different from those that heterosexuals are involved in - some even have children. ;)

shannenms wrote:3-What contribution do gays to the society, other than corrupting it?


:lol: What about I answer, and then you make a judgement? ;) Well, as far as your culture is concerned, I've mentioned Sa'di, Hafez, Khayyam, and so on...the works of these writers, for instance, form quite a large bulk of the standard repertoire of Persian literature, thus altering the national consciousness of the Iranian people. Many famous writers, artists, politicians and so on are gay, in the Western World. Here is a lengthy list you might want to browse through.

shannenms wrote:4-Don't you think that your thought about homosexuality is not able to answer a simple question of reproduction?


I didn't see a problem really, no. Let me ask you...what do you think of heterosexual couples that do not have children? What about older couples that marry after the woman has passed childbearing age? As I see it, the validity of a relationship is not established by the ability and willingness of its partners to have children. I respect if you think so, but that doesn't mirror reality where I live, at least.

shannenms wrote:5-How is this attraction?


I'm going to need you to rephrase this question. Sorry.

shannenms wrote:6-Invitation of other people to be gay is part of this community?


No, I don't invite people to be gay, and I don't believe people can become gay either. Think about this shannenms...if Persian society is so adamantly against homosexuality, wouldn't it be easier not to be gay? Why would someone choose it? I have family that doesn't talk to me because I am gay. I assure you I don't like that, and that my life would be easier if I were heterosexual. You don't choose who you are attracted to, and inviting someone who isn't gay to be gay just wouldn't make much sense to me...
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Postby alijsh » 2008-01-05, 5:48

Shannenms wrote:3-What contribution do gays to the society, other than corrupting it?

I don't think it affects society that much to be fair enough to call them corrupter (fâsed). You know, the majority of the society is straight <i>(I hope it's not an offensive word towards gays. I'm not familiar with English terms and their usage)</i> and in my opinion, what can corrupt the society is what being able to affect the majority. I mean these are straight people than can corrupt the society and not these poor minority gays whose relation is in closet and indoors [1]. Just look around yourself and see boys and girls in the streets of Tehran and see whether gays can corrupt them or the straight people?

Regarding their contribution to the society, having sex is just part of the life (and mostly a personal matter). They can contribute as others in their own job.

NOTE - I'm by no means in favor of homosexuality but I don't like all bowels and jars to be broken on the head of (a nice Persian idiom) homosexuals. I don't think they can corrupt the society as much as we can.

***
[1] This also applies to the Western society to a good degree, as I'm sure it's not still considered neutral even in the West and there are still many considering homosexuality a taboo and such and such. So I don't think gays live so overt even in the West. I mean they are still looked down and they have to conceal their relation to some degree. I won't believe all Western people are in favor and consequently have a neutral look at it.

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Postby kalemiye » 2008-01-05, 12:23

Aljish is right because even though in Spain gay marriage is legal, many judges refuse to marry this gay couples. Also, the radical Christians refuse to accept this marriages and did a demonstration against it a couple of days ago in Madrid (and believe me, there was a lot of people).

Certainly even in a western country were gay marriage is legal and were surgery to change sex is covered by the welfare system in many provinces, gay still have problems.
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Postby alijsh » 2008-01-05, 13:14

Thanks Renata.

renata wrote:change sex is covered by the welfare system in many provinces

Do you mean bisexuals? Here it is supported.
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Postby loqu » 2008-01-05, 13:41

I feel I'm not really «allowed» to discuss in here since I'm not currently learning Persian (though I'm interested in it), but well, I'm a gay and live in Spain, I'm fully out of the closet (don't have to be ashamed of anything) and my personal feeling is that the people who look down on me is a very small minority. Of course it depends on the area of the country (my area has always been typically gay-friendly, while some rural places are more hellish, e.g.).

It's true that some gays still have problems with integrist Christians, but so do single parents, non-married couples and Muslims, they have trouble with integrist Christians as well. I have never had a problem with anyone for the simple reason of being homosexual.
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Postby kalemiye » 2008-01-05, 14:10

loqu wrote:I feel I'm not really «allowed» to discuss in here since I'm not currently learning Persian (though I'm interested in it), but well, I'm a gay and live in Spain, I'm fully out of the closet (don't have to be ashamed of anything) and my personal feeling is that the people who look down on me is a very small minority. Of course it depends on the area of the country (my area has always been typically gay-friendly, while some rural places are more hellish, e.g.).

It's true that some gays still have problems with integrist Christians, but so do single parents, non-married couples and Muslims, they have trouble with integrist Christians as well. I have never had a problem with anyone for the simple reason of being homosexual.


I totally agree with you Loqu, I think gays are generally accepted by society, but that doesn't mean there isn't a sector in Spain against gays, and that's what I wanted to point out. Also, I think you've seen the recent case of a a transexual that was fired from his job precisely for being a transexual; on the other hand, there are many gay showmen on tv that are very popular, for instance, Jesús Vázquez. Nevertheless, there is much road to go I think, until society totally accepts homosexuality as something completely normal. It's my opinion, though.

@ Aljish: The sex-change operation is free, or parcially paid, not sure, to people that actually want to have that surgery. Although, there is a huge wait-list. I think one of the Comunidades Autónomas in which this surgery is free is loqu's: Andalucía. :).

I think if some baby is born with a problem has surgery as well.
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Postby loqu » 2008-01-05, 14:30

Yes, renata, so we agree totally :)

And you're right, here in Andalusia it's free to have the sex change operation. It has to be previously approved by a psychologist of the health care system, though, so that he can certify that the patient feels he/she really belongs to the other gender.
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Postby alijsh » 2008-01-05, 15:13

loqu wrote:And you're right, here in Andalusia it's free to have the sex change operation. It has to be previously approved by a psychologist of the health care system, though, so that he can certify that the patient feels he/she really belongs to the other gender.

It's quite the same here. a psychologist must approve it and I think there are also medical tests for the level of hormones, etc. However, I think the approval of parents is also a condition (at least here). Some parents may don't agree as they find it a disgrace. How about there? Do parents always agree? Or the approval of parents is not a condition?
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