gay - hamjens baz?

[Shannenms]

Since most-wanted said gays need medicines.. I've heard that homosexuality can be "treated" through hormonotherapy. Or some say with psychological treatment. Ever heard of any such thing?

As far as I know it was once classified in DSM-IV criteria. I maybe wrong about it.

[Ariki]

Also...welcome Riki! Good to have you in our little corner.

Hi Sisyphe! Thanks for welcoming me!

I feel slightly fake since I'm participating in this discussion but I'm not learning Persian/Farsi. Though, I had a friend from Afghanistan who could speak Farsi, so I hope that counts ^_^;. He also come across as being "effeminate", and we teased him for many hours when he told us that his father is from Kandahar and that Kandahar was known to have a population of gay men. We used to say to him "ah, so that's who taught you your ways!" and "its not your fault that your father is from Kandahar, you can't help who you are" I doubt he was actually gay, but if he was, we wouldn't be surprized. I guess you could say we were mean in High School but he was just as mean to other people, so I guess one could say that it was karma (he implied many nasty things about other people).

I find the responses in this thread fascinating. Its really interseting to read what people have had to say in here in a safe environment for discussion.

[alijsh]

I could welcome you earlier than Sisyphe but I wanted to say it when replying to your post. Anyway, better late than never



My French friend has sent me a postcard from Aoteraroa. It has pictures from Hauraki Gulf, Pohutu Geyser, Mount Cook and Purakaunui Falls. You live in paradise man!

[most-wanted]

No. virginity is not enforced by the government.

My apologies the point was the killing of an innocent daughter.

Keeping virginity is not peculair to Iran, every culture whether in the past or at present confirmed such virtue.

I don't deny lack of this "keeping virginity" in Afghanistan.You may see how afghans are killing their loves because this reason.

[most-wanted]

I doubt he was actually gay, but if he was, we wouldn't be surprized. I guess you could say we were mean in High School but he was just as mean to other people, so I guess one could say

Ask him franky if he is really son of his father,or a victim of an old man calling himself his father.Cause Kandahar is very popular for its child Abusing not Gays.

[Ariki]

Oh this person really was the son of his father and he was adamant about the reputation. Though, it backfired on him, because he shouldn't have said such things about his father's city. Also, he could also have done what a lot of people like to do - link sexual child abuse with homosexuality. As you said, there is a high incidence of child abuse in Kandahar (whether it be sexual or not, you're yet to say) so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that when he said he gay he really meant "child abuse/pedophilia". Though, if he did mean gay as in gay, he meant it from the way a Westerner would perceive the action and not necessarily how a non-Westerner would (we have to remember, his audience wasn't from his cultural background, he knew that, and so he had to articulate himself differently).

He himself was quite westernized since we never ever saw him observe Ramadan in high school and we never saw him do his daily prayers. I think he was trying to fit in as he was one of the few muslims at school. Its been years since I've heard from him, but another friend of mine saw him the other day. I don't know if he's become more devout (the lack of devotion surprised all of us non-muslims).

[Sisyphe]

Since most-wanted said gays need medicines.. I've heard that homosexuality can be "treated" through hormonotherapy. Or some say with psychological treatment. Ever heard of any such thing?

Yes, of course I've heard that crap, but I want to see ıf ıt really works...

It's [psychological treatment, that is] relatively common in the United States. Not only does it not work, but it drives many people to commit suicide. Homosexuality is not a threat, and it's not hurting anyone...the case of reparative therapy makes it clear that it's people who imagine some sort of harm that homosexuality causes that are the problem, not gays themselves. Hormonal treatments are just as dangerous - they often have undesired effects on the body...such as the growth of breasts on men.

OK, referring to your first phrase above, if you believe so, do you believe it is not normal to be born in that way? I mean the minority of this gay community confirms this anormality as far as natural reproduction is concerned?

Finding partner for a homosexual is not as easy as for a hetrosexual. This may cause using a homosexual to resort to force in finding his partner.

OK?

You'd think that you would be well-immersed in gay cultures to make such bold statements like this. But somehow I have the feeling you aren't...I dunno, just an inkling I had. It appears to me that you are merely speculating. Do you have any homosexual friends? Or do you know people who identify as homosexual?

OK, referring to your first phrase above, if you believe so, do you believe it is not normal to be born in that way? I mean the minority of this gay community confirms this anormality as far as natural reproduction is concerned?

I can only tell you what I've observed. And like most people, that would be that I did not, at any time, consciously choose my sexual orientation. Now whether that was determined in the womb or not, I couldn't say. We've covered the issue of reproduction before...I certainly don't think it's a requirement or that it should be some sort of litmus test for the validity of a relationship or sexual orientation.

most-wanted...unisexuality is not a word. Please describe the concept behind the word you meant, and I'm sure we'll be able to tell you how to say it correctly in English. As for child abuse, of course I would not advocate it. Child abuse is a purely sexual activity. Even if the adult does not intend it to be, the child is unable to reciprocate, and very likely isn't too sure of what's going on to begin with. When the child does....well, they're like a bat out of hell, unfortunately.

[ego]

Shannenms my grand grand mother would definitely agree with you about homosexuality

[Sisyphe]

I think you mean...

Shannenms my [s]grand[/s] great grandmother [no space, grandmother is one word]
would definitely agree with you about homosexuality

[kalemiye]

Since most-wanted said gays need medicines.. I've heard that homosexuality can be "treated" through hormonotherapy. Or some say with psychological treatment. Ever heard of any such thing?

Yes, of course I've heard that crap, but I want to see ıf ıt really works...

It's [psychological treatment, that is] relatively common in the United States. Not only does it not work, but it drives many people to commit suicide. Homosexuality is not a threat, and it's not hurting anyone...the case of reparative therapy makes it clear that it's people who imagine some sort of harm that homosexuality causes that are the problem, not gays themselves. Hormonal treatments are just as dangerous - they often have undesired effects on the body...such as the growth of breasts on men.

I understand, probably they start thinking they are not "right" and they don't fit in society... that would push to commit suicide to more than one person. Also, religion has to do with this, since most creeds do not allow homosexuality. However, in Spain there is a Christian Gay Association.

I wish the origin of homosexuality was known, not to "cure" anybody, but hoping that knowing why it exists people can be convinced that it is something natural and not a choice, so all those stupid "they are sexual pervs" theories are wiped out of the world.

[most-wanted]

As you said, there is a high incidence of child abuse in Kandahar (whether it be sexual or not, you're yet to say) so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that when he said he gay he really meant "child abuse/pedophilia". Though, if he did mean gay as in gay, he meant it from the way a Westerner would perceive the action and not necessarily how a non-Westerner would (we have to remember, his audience wasn't from his cultural background, he knew that, and so he had to articulate himself differently).

Sorry I had to add 'Sexual' to Child Abusing.When I got to know about kind of Sexual child abusing in afghanistan.I was really ashamed and really schocked.
But kandahar is not the only province where children are victims of sexual desires.There are some other provinces too.But kandahar might have the most number of it.There are many jokes about kandahar's sexual child abusing.and many stories.So kandahar is very popular about this issue.

By the way now i remember that other word."Bacha be reesh., boys without beards

He himself was quite westernized since we never ever saw him observe Ramadan in high school and we never saw him do his daily prayers. I think he was trying to fit in as he was one of the few muslims at school. Its been years since I've heard from him, but another friend of mine saw him the other day. I don't know if he's become more devout (the lack of devotion surprised all of us non-muslims).

Actually i don't have any girlfriend.It doesn't mean that i am a gay.And I am not practicing my religion as good as i should.But my religion is every thing.Though i was muslim,then
for some years atheist and now i am again muslim.

most-wanted...unisexuality is not a word.

Sorry my post was a bit facetious.My appolocies if it hurted you.
What I mean is someone who have sexual relationship with his family member.

[Sisyphe]

It didn't hurt me, no worries, I just didn't understand what you meant. I've addressed child abuse as well as incest on this thread now, so I don't really have anything further to say on those really...but if you have a question about something I've said...

[ego]

I think you mean...

Shannenms my [s]grand[/s] great grandmother [no space, grandmother is one word]
would definitely agree with you about homosexuality

Thank you.

This discussion is definitely interesting although I cannot say I read something that I wouldn't expect so far

[alijsh]

it is something natural and not a choice

Do you know what is one of the differences between human and animal? Human has the power of knowledge and choice (the mental power used to control and direct your thoughts and actions). Human can choose what to do. By saying "not a choice" you're (indirectly) insulting to homosexuals. You are not considering them as creatures that can choose what to do. You talk as if they have to be and remain homosexual because it's of their nature/instinct. No. it's wrong. They can change. I don't like to leave them to their own thinking that they cannot change. They must be supported. They can change.

(Renata: these you's are not pointed to you. I'm talking generally to all those thinking so)

[Sisyphe]

Hmm...should I change? Why? I'm quite content with myself. I'd agree with Ali to an extent...we have control over our actions. So that means if you are attracted to someone of the same sex, then you naturally have the choice to ignore/supress/not act on it. I do think, however, that sexual orientation is fixed for the most part. There definitely are people who choose to supress their gay desires, and I did that when I was a Christian, but I will tell you from experience that the root of these desires does not disappear or even diminish.
Ali, if you still stand by your last post, I have a challenge for you, if you don't find it offensive. Try to want to have a man as your companion. Try to be attracted to the same sex. Can you do it? - I don't imagine you can. Doing the same with the opposite sex just doesn't sit well with me. But I don't see that as a problem, per se.

[alijsh]

Sisyphe, I meant that humosexuals are not will-less. What is the English for bierâde (بی‌اراده)? I said will-less to mean that. I must find a book online and ask you read some parts of it to fully understand what I meant. It's great you know Persian. You can read things that have little chance to be translated.

I do think, however, that sexual orientation is fixed for the most part.

No. It is not fixed. We can change because we have will. But we must be persuaded that we must change otherwise we remain fixed because we are convinced with our current status. Please don't deprive yourself of the power of will. You have yourself chosen to be gay. Do you mean that you don't like to be a homosexual but you can't because you have been born homosexual and can't change?

[Shannenms]

Shannenms my grand grand mother would definitely agree with you about homosexuality

I am happy about that!
Do you mean I am regressive in this matter?

[Shannenms]

You'd think that you would be well-immersed in gay cultures to make such bold statements like this. But somehow I have the feeling you aren't...I dunno, just an inkling I had. It appears to me that you are merely speculating. Do you have any homosexual friends? Or do you know people who identify as homosexual?

I can only tell you what I've observed. And like most people, that would be that I did not, at any time, consciously choose my sexual orientation. Now whether that was determined in the womb or not, I couldn't say. We've covered the issue of reproduction before...I certainly don't think it's a requirement or that it should be some sort of litmus test for the validity of a relationship or sexual orientation.

There is no need to be well-immersed in something in order to have rights to talk about it(that's quite a fallacy )

I have no homosexual friend, as I mentioned earlier there is no lesbian in Iran as far as I know the girls, but this doesn't make any difference to my judgement.

I don't understand this sentence "And like most people, that would be that I did not, at any time, consciously choose my sexual orientation.", please rephrase it, sorry

By the way you are avoiding any critical opinion on your statements, as I understood this post.
I am waiting for a PM

Thanks.

[Shannenms]

Christian Gay Association.

These three words are just contradicting each other.

[Sisyphe]

Sisyphe, I meant that homosexuals are not will-less. What is the English for bierâde (بی‌اراده)? I said will-less to mean that. I must find a book online and ask you read some parts of it to fully understand what I meant. It's great you know Persian. You can read things that have little chance to be translated.

I'd be interested in reading that, yes. Bi-erâdeh is hard to translate...I'd probably say impotent or ineffectual...though those don't really capture the meaning the same way.

No. It is not fixed. We can change because we have will. But we must be persuaded that we must change otherwise we remain fixed because we are convinced with our current status. Please don't deprive yourself of the power of will. You have yourself chosen to be gay. Do you mean that you don't like to be a homosexual but you can't because you have been born homosexual and can't change?

I used to not like being gay...but then I realized that it was more because I felt I wasn't supposed to be because of the people surrounding me telling me so, rather than it being an actual problem. So my will is to overcome intolerance and injustice, not to change something in me that's not broken to begin with. What do you make of my challenge though, Ali?

There is no need to be well-immersed in something in order to have rights to talk about it

I wasn't saying you didn't have the right to talk about it. But having the right to talk about something and being an informed voice about that subject are two different things. That is especially the case when you make pretty bold statements like 'homosexuals are a danger to society', don't you think so? I think having or not having exposure to gays makes a big difference. In the former case, you would have the opportunity to see how gays conduct themselves in society (which isn't too different, really), while in the latter case, you are only harping on an abstract concept that you have not been able to develop a well-rounded, informed opinion about.

I'll rephrase that sentence: I don't think you woke up one day and said to yourself "Gee! I'm going to be attracted to guys!" That would be a really humourous scenario, in my opinion. But this is what people who believe that sexuality is a choice are saying...they are saying that sexuality is a conscious, premeditated choice, which makes no sense when you consider the difficulties that come with being gay. You guys have been quite kind to me and have made sure that you don't offend me, and I'm really grateful to be able to talk about this subject with Persians in that way. But there are many people that I have encountered who do not care whether what they say or do is offensive when it comes to gays - that is a reality in much of the world, unfortunately.

I'll send you another PM in the morning.