Moderator:vijayjohn
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that. It doesn't sound like that to me.vijayjohn wrote:mōdgethanc wrote:It does? Huh?vijayjohn wrote:Nope! غ sounds more like [gʁ] I think.
Well, at least to me it does. And whenever I pronounce it that way when talking to native speakers of Arabic, Persian, or Urdu, they say my pronunciation is oh so great and other foreigners don't know how to pronounce ghain, although I'm sure you could argue without much trouble that that's not really evidence of anything...
I learned it that way from my brother, actually, who told me it was pronounced the way gr would be pronounced by French people speaking French.
cHr0mChIk wrote:Well, I actually believe it's pronounced like that in certain dialects. But, in Fusha, it's definitely /ɣ/
mōdgethanc wrote:This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that. It doesn't sound like that to me.vijayjohn wrote:mōdgethanc wrote:It does? Huh?vijayjohn wrote:Nope! غ sounds more like [gʁ] I think.
Well, at least to me it does. And whenever I pronounce it that way when talking to native speakers of Arabic, Persian, or Urdu, they say my pronunciation is oh so great and other foreigners don't know how to pronounce ghain, although I'm sure you could argue without much trouble that that's not really evidence of anything...
I learned it that way from my brother, actually, who told me it was pronounced the way gr would be pronounced by French people speaking French.
Sure there is. It's based on tajwid and it's the one taught to Westerners. (Whether Arabs themselves teach it in schools, I don't know.) I find it irritating how Wikipedia has apparently decided "every regional pronunciation of Arabic (and Portuguese) ever must be represented in IPA" even though we use a standardized form for pretty much every other language, including English.vijayjohn wrote:There is such a thing as a Fusha pronunciation? I thought everyone pronounced Fusha in their own accent.
mōdgethanc wrote:Sure there is. It's based on tajwid and it's the one taught to Westerners. (Whether Arabs themselves teach it in schools, I don't know.)vijayjohn wrote:There is such a thing as a Fusha pronunciation? I thought everyone pronounced Fusha in their own accent.
I guess so. I know nothing about Vedic Sanskrit, so maybe. I'd say it's like ecclesiastical Latin, maybe - pretty closer to the classical language, but not exactly the same.vijayjohn wrote:Oh okay, thanks. Is that kind of like Vedic Sanskrit pronunciation then?
I have no idea where they got the velarization from. I can believe it was uvular and became velar.Also Wikipedia seems to say غ was /ʁˠ/ and it's in modern dialects that it's pronounced [ɣ].
mōdgethanc wrote:I have no idea where they got the velarization from.
Like I said, I have no idea where they got this stuff from. Keep in mind that page is about the reconstructed pronunciation of Classical Arabic, and there's a separate page on MSA. I find it hard to believe those sounds were all velarized and that Proto-Semitic *q became voiced and then in modern times, voiceless again (and then voiced to [g] again in some dialects). What I think happened there is that some enterprising amateur linguist looked at the rules for tajwid, which have prescientific descriptions of the phonetics of Classical Arabic, and tried to convert it into IPA. The fact that there is no source for this stuff is very sketchy. My rule for Wikipedia (and academic writing in general, of course) is, "Sources or it didn't happen".vijayjohn wrote:mōdgethanc wrote:I have no idea where they got the velarization from.
They say, "The consonants [ɾˠ, ɢˠ, ʁˠ, χˠ] are pronounced with velarization," but they don't give a source. They also say that the emphatic consonants were either velarized or pharyngealized (and they do have a source for that claim).
Michael wrote:cHr0mChIk wrote:If I understood well, Urdu is practically Hindi filled with Perso-Arabic loanwords and script. Pretty much the same relation Serbian and Bosnian have.
If you want to get technical, Hindi is Urdu with all the Perso-Arabic and even certain indigenous Prakritic words replaced by awkward shuddh creations. Hindustani/Urdu was originally a secular language, spoken by Hindu and Muslim alike. The Devanagari script was forced upon most portions of Hindustani-speaking India after independence because of the rise to power of the Hindu nationalists.
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