A couple pronunciation questions :)

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Hunef
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Postby Hunef » 2005-10-14, 17:18

Dingbats wrote:
toffte wrote:Skulle nån kunna ge exempel på mindre dialektalt tveksamma ord med ljuden [{:], [E:] och [e:]


[e:] används såvitt jag vet i alla ord med långt e, i så gott som alla dialekter, som i "leka" eller "spel".


Notera att ljudet [e:] i rikssvenska alltid motsvarar äldre fornsvenska e, i eller ei. Exempel:

er > [e:] 'är',
spila > [e:] 'spela',
leika > [e:] 'leka'.

(NB: I jämtska gäller dock att ei är bevarat framför kort konsonant.)

Ironiskt nog så gäller det at fornsvenska é, dvs det gamla långa e:et, har blivit till [{:]/[E] med stavning 'ä':

fé, kné, tré; léttr, théttr etc > 'fä', 'knä', 'trä(d)' [{:]; 'lätt' [E], 'tät' [{:] etc.

(NB: I jämtskan gäller dock att é utvecklats till [je:] och sedan till [e:] igen. Exempelvis så gäller det att jämtska létt 'lätt', tétt 'tät' uttalas [jEt:], [tSEt:] som om det funnes ett j: *ljett, *tjett.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Dingbats » 2005-10-16, 16:03

Hunef wrote:er > [e:] 'är',

Är vokalen i "är" alltså ett [e] ursprungligen?

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Postby Hunef » 2005-10-17, 17:46

Dingbats wrote:
Hunef wrote:er > [e:] 'är',

Är vokalen i "är" alltså ett [e] ursprungligen?


Ja, det tror jag. Under vikingatid var den heklt säkert [e], och innan dess [ i ], jmf. tyska 'ist' och engelska 'is'. (Formen is finns belagd i urnordiskan på runstenar - "frawaradaR ana haha is slaginaR" - "Fråråd på 'Haha' är slagen", där 'Haha' antingen syftar på en plats eller på en häst.) Vi har alltså i svenskn utvecklingen is > er > är, där sista steget bara är dialektalt och skriftspråkligt.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Walker, Texas Ranger » 2005-11-21, 14:24

Aszev wrote:
svenska84 wrote:Intressant. Aszev, var bor du i Sverige?
Bor och bor...jag hör i alla fall hemma i Östergötland.


Aha, en östgöte! Som en annan, då.

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Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2005-12-03, 18:06

I´ve a question about pronounciation, hope this is a good place to post it.

I know that the `g´ becomes sometimes a Dutch ´j´ in Göteborg for example. But how is the `g´ pronounced otherwise?

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Postby Dingbats » 2005-12-04, 15:32

Vogelvrij wrote:I´ve a question about pronounciation, hope this is a good place to post it.

I know that the `g´ becomes sometimes a Dutch ´j´ in Göteborg for example. But how is the `g´ pronounced otherwise?


/g/ normally. But it can also be pronounced /x/ in some loanwords from French.

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Postby Jonne » 2005-12-04, 17:11

...or maybe not pronounced at all. Like in err dåligt? or jag?

at least not when you speak fast.

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Postby Hunef » 2005-12-04, 17:38

Dingbats wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:I´ve a question about pronounciation, hope this is a good place to post it.

I know that the `g´ becomes sometimes a Dutch ´j´ in Göteborg for example. But how is the `g´ pronounced otherwise?


/g/ normally. But it can also be pronounced /x/ in some loanwords from French.


In some positions in french loanwords it is pronunced /ʃ/ (like english 'sh'), like in 'garage', 'passage' etc. (This is not true in southern Swedish,. though).
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2005-12-04, 17:48

Jonne wrote:...or maybe not pronounced at all. Like in err dåligt? or jag?

at least not when you speak fast.


I would never pronunce the 'g' in 'dålig(t)'. In fact, g's which were spelled 'gh' in Old Swedish (pronunced fricatively) have become silent in colloquial standard Swedish. Only when reading loudly from books, e.g. in church etc., the 'g' was heard. Lately, though, the book pronunciation has started to become used in more colloquial contexts though. Of course, it is pronunced hard rather than fricative in most areas.

In areas were the Old Swedish 'gh' never completely became silent, one still has a softer pronunciation of these g's. This is the case in e.g. Jämtland were I come from. In a word like 'dag' most swedes would say /da:/ but some would use the book pronunciation /da:g/ with a hard 'g' (sounding almost like 'k' to me; /da:k/). But in some dialects we still say it /da:gh/ with a soft, almost frivative 'g'. I say like this. People from areas where this soft 'g' doesn't exist anymore hear this soft 'g' as a 'j': "/da:j/". Cf. how 'g' is pronunced in 'berg', 'torg' etc /bärj/, /tårj/ etc. In my dialect we clearly say a soft 'g' in those words, but people from the outside think it sounds just like how they say, i.e. with /j/ rather than /gh/. :roll:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Skurai » 2005-12-04, 19:00

Dingbats wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:I´ve a question about pronounciation, hope this is a good place to post it.

I know that the `g´ becomes sometimes a Dutch ´j´ in Göteborg for example. But how is the `g´ pronounced otherwise?


/g/ normally. But it can also be pronounced /x/ in some loanwords from French.


isn't it [ɧ],/x\/ like in sjal, gelé? hmm maybe not, maybe it is [x],/x/, well atleast in gelé...
cy | gv

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Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2005-12-04, 20:54

Complicated :D

But I understand the French thing and I can pronounce soft `g´´s, not hard. But that is no big problem?

Thanks :)

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Postby Dingbats » 2005-12-05, 14:55

Vogelvrij wrote:Complicated :D

But I understand the French thing and I can pronounce soft `g´´s, not hard. But that is no big problem?

Thanks :)

No, that shouldn't be a problem. If you don't know how to pronounce it, pronounce it /g/.

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Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2005-12-05, 15:46

Dingbats wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:Complicated :D

But I understand the French thing and I can pronounce soft `g´´s, not hard. But that is no big problem?

Thanks :)

No, that shouldn't be a problem. If you don't know how to pronounce it, pronounce it /g/.
Okay.

Also in Sverige? Or is it dan like the French g?

And how do I pronounce hej? I was in Norwegian last year and they said also something like that. Is it just like hey?

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Postby Dingbats » 2005-12-05, 20:24

Vogelvrij wrote:Also in Sverige? Or is it dan like the French g?

No, there it is /j/, as in "you".

And how do I pronounce hej? I was in Norwegian last year and they said also something like that. Is it just like hey?

/he̽j/, like "hey" basically.

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Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2005-12-06, 14:13

Dingbats wrote:
Vogelvrij wrote:Also in Sverige? Or is it dan like the French g?

No, there it is /j/, as in "you".

And how do I pronounce hej? I was in Norwegian last year and they said also something like that. Is it just like hey?

/he̽j/, like "hey" basically.
Ah, of course.

Thanks :)


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