Seeking help, please, to verify correct pronunciation

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daisy
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Seeking help, please, to verify correct pronunciation

Postby daisy » 2005-08-20, 15:15

Hi,

I would like to know, please, how to pronounce the following words--I've provided what I hope are accurate translations. (By the way, the first three words have to do with eating waffles on Annunciation Day and that day's connection with the Virgin Mary and the second two are related to St. Lucy's Day. Both are Roman Catholic feast days.)

Vaffelsdagen-VOH-fell-DAH-gen
Våffla=VOH-flah
Vår Frau=VOHR FRUH
Lussibrud-LOOSE-ay-BROOD
Lussidagen=LOOSE-ay-DAH-gen

If someone could please help me, I'd be grateful.

Thanks! :D

daisy

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Postby Dingbats » 2005-08-21, 15:17

I'm afraid you've got some words wrong there... I corrected those. Also, describing the pronounciation with English spelling really doesn't work. I changed those pronounciations and added IPA (if you know IPA).

Våffeldagen = VOH-fell-DAH-gen [ˈvɔ́ fɛlˈdɑː́ gɛn]
Våffla = VOH-flah [ˈvɔ́ fla]
Vår fru (I think that's what you mean) = VOHR FROO [voːɹ̝ fɾʉː]
Lussebrud = LOOSE-ay-BROOD [ˈlɵ́ sɛbrʉːd]
Lussedagen = LOOSE-ay-DAH-gen [ˈlɵ́ sɛˈdɑː́ gɛn]

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Postby daisy » 2005-08-21, 15:29

Hi Dingbats,

I didn't know IPA before, but I just Goggled it, so now I know...However, it seems quite complicated...but I appreciate your effort very much.

I have American students, so my thought was to give them something easy to pronounce, thus the English phonetic spellings...

The book I read referred to Var Frau, which it said is translated as "Our Lady." Is your spelling of Fru correct, then?

daisy

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Postby Dingbats » 2005-08-21, 16:26

If it's "Our Lady" you mean, then it's "Vår fru".

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Postby daisy » 2005-08-21, 18:16

Okay, thanks!

daisy

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Postby Qaanaaq » 2005-08-25, 9:28

Dingbats is right - it's quite hard to get it right with English spelling. However, let's try:

Våffeldagen = VOH-fell-DA:H-g"en
Våffla = VOFF-lah
Vår fru = vo:hr FRYH: [this "yh" is very unique for Swedish and Norwegian - don't worry , any foreigner doesn't pronounce it properly ;)]
Lussebrud = LYSS-se-BRY:HD
Lussedagen = LYSS-se-DA:H-g"en

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Postby daisy » 2005-08-25, 13:12

Qaanaaq,

You're the best! :)

However, I don't quite understand the : and " in the phonetic spellings. Could you explain, please?

daisy :?

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Postby Qaanaaq » 2005-08-25, 14:15

daisy wrote:Qaanaaq,

You're the best! :)

However, I don't quite understand the : and " in the phonetic spellings. Could you explain, please?

daisy :?


no problem ;)
with : I meant that it's long, and " i used to separate. G"ee is not pronounced jee but g-ee.

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Postby daisy » 2005-08-25, 16:59

OK, let me see if I get it. :?

Gee as in the French name Guy?? (So, maybe spelled phonetically, ghee?)

daisy

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Postby Qaanaaq » 2005-08-25, 18:10

oh yea, the h is much better than " :)

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Postby daisy » 2005-08-25, 19:03

Great!

How is it that you know so many languages?

daisy

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Postby Qaanaaq » 2005-08-25, 19:28

daisy wrote:Great!

How is it that you know so many languages?

daisy


hobby ;)

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Postby daisy » 2005-08-25, 20:18

Gotcha. Well, thanks again--I sure appreciate it!

daisy :D

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Postby Hunef » 2005-08-26, 2:37

våffeldagen - VOH-full-DAH-n (southern), VOH-fur-DAH-n (northern)
våffla - VOH-flah (southern), VOH-frah (northern)
vårfru - VOH-frew
lussebröd - LUCE-seh-BRUR (silent 'r' here!)
lussedagen - LUCE-seh-DAH-n

Note here that våffeldagen is just an alternative spelling of vårfrudagen where vårfru Maria means 'virgin Mary'. Of course, there is really no connection to waffles, it's just that both vårfrudagen and våffeldagen are pronunced as "VOH-fur-DAH-n". (Except in Southern Sweden where l is not pronunced as an 'r' with a flap.

I have never heard the word lussebrud so I changed it to lussebröd which literally means 'St. Lucy bread'.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Postby Qaanaaq » 2005-08-26, 8:23

Hunef wrote:våffeldagen - VOH-full-DAH-n (southern), VOH-fur-DAH-n (northern)
våffla - VOH-flah (southern), VOH-frah (northern)
vårfru - VOH-frew
lussebröd - LUCE-seh-BRUR (silent 'r' here!)
lussedagen - LUCE-seh-DAH-n

Note here that våffeldagen is just an alternative spelling of vårfrudagen where vårfru Maria means 'virgin Mary'. Of course, there is really no connection to waffles, it's just that both vårfrudagen and våffeldagen are pronunced as "VOH-fur-DAH-n". (Except in Southern Sweden where l is not pronunced as an 'r' with a flap.

I have never heard the word lussebrud so I changed it to lussebröd which literally means 'St. Lucy bread'.


Hunef, are you a supporter of the independent Jämtland or such? Can you write jämsk?

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Postby Hunef » 2005-08-26, 18:08

Qaanaaq: "Hunef, are you a supporter of the independent Jämtland or such? Can you write jämsk?"

Of course I am a supporter of an autonomous Jamtland. The independent republic thing is merely a gimmick, though. :wink:
I write Jamtlandic, yes: Um dú hev hug so kann ég vísa tav dig sumt tav skriptmálin mekkan með gjøgnum annan in leið. Henninn leiðinn er fyr svenskunn, sum dú kannski veit. ('If you have the interest I can teach you some of our written language as well through some other channel. This channel is for Swedish, as you perhaps know.')
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby daisy » 2005-08-27, 2:50

Hi Hunef,

Thank you for the spellings--very useful indeed. Interesting, too, the difference between Northern and Southern pronunciation (but that's much like the U.S. too, where the Northern and Southern accents are very different).

According to my research, the Annunciation (the day the Angel Gabriel announced to the Virgin Mary that she would be the mother of Jesus) was known (probably before the protestant Reformation, when Sweden was Roman Catholic) as "Waffle Day" (våffeldagen) in Sweden. The Swedish word for waffle (våffla) is a corruption of vårfru, which means "Our Lady" (the Virgin Mary). So you see the connection... :D

Lussibrud is actually translated as "St. Lucy bride," when young Swedish girls dress up as St. Lucy (white dress, red sash, wreath with candles on her head) and serves her parents breakfast in bed. Therefore, how would Lussibrud be spelled phonetically, please? Lussebrud = LYSS-se-BRY:HD, as Quaanaaq has it?

daisy

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Postby Hunef » 2005-08-27, 13:04

daisy: "... (but that's much like the U.S. too, where the Northern and Southern accents are very different)."

In Sweden, traditionally, there was more to it than merely accent. People from different provinces could not understand each other's "languages". They had to speak standard swedish instead, and that's how standard swedish was formed as we know it today. (Even though the upper class had their own standard based on low german and danish which probably has affected the standardised pronunciation as well.) Today it is more like the situation in USA, i.e. the difference between how people speak in different parts of Sweden is mainly a matter of accent.
(In some parts of Sweden we still speak the local language though, like in Jamtland which is the oldest continuously existing democracy. See an earlier post in this thread for a sample of the local language using normalised spelling.)

daisy: " So you see the connection... "

Yes, this connection between vårfru 'virgin' and våffla 'waffle' I explained in my post. The only connection is that these words were pronunced the same in the northern dialects, at least in compounds like vårfrudagen/våffeldagen. Due to this confusion, people started to eat waffles (!) to honour virgin Mary. :D I hope she feels honoured. :wink:

daisy: "Lussibrud is actually translated as "St. Lucy bride," when young Swedish girls dress up as St. Lucy (white dress, red sash, wreath with candles on her head) and serves her parents breakfast in bed. Therefore, how would Lussibrud be spelled phonetically, please? Lussebrud = LYSS-se-BRY:HD, as Quaanaaq has it?"

OK, now I get what you mean. But it should be lussebrud with an e, not i. This Lussebrud tradition came to my province some time after the second world war (in the 1940's), and as far as I know we call her Santa Lucia or even merely Lucia. In southwestern Sweden were this tradition was invented in the medieval times, she may traditionally have been called lussebrud, but this word doesn't exist all over the country. I think that the lussebrud/Lucia tradition spread outside southwestern Sweden in the 19th century, and in mid 20th century it turned into a nationwide tradition.
This is how lussebrud would be pronunced in fairly standardised pronunciation: LUCE-seh-BREW-d (the final 'd' is almost as soft as an english 'th' in 'they'). I have put up a recording at

http://www.geocities.com/jepe2503/lussebrud.wav

If the link doesn't work (due to some stupid Geocities flaw) then copy and paste it into the URL field in your browser![/i]
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby Hunef » 2005-08-27, 13:24

Qaanaq: I have put up a recording of

Um dú hev hug so kann ég vísa tav dig sumt tav skriptmálin mekkan með gjøgnum annan in leið. Henninn leiðinn er fyr svenskunn, sum dú kannski veit. ('If you have the interest I can teach you some of our written language as well through some other channel. This channel is for Swedish, as you perhaps know.')

at the following URL:

http://www.geocities.com/jepe2503/jamttext.wav (92K, 11Kps)

If the link doesn't work, then copy and paste the link into the URL field in your browser.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby daisy » 2005-08-27, 15:45

Hi Hunef,

It's so interesting how languages develop, isn't it? Thanks for the info.

I see the confusion that would result. I think she probably is! :D

Thanks for correcting my spelling. Interesting that she's called Santa Lucia even in Sweden--she was Italian by birth, as you probably know.

Thanks also for the sound file--that will be a great help.

Thanks again for taking time to help me--I certainly appreciate it, and learned a lot from the experience. :D

daisy


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