Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-02-05, 18:44

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Johanna wrote:the enclitic forms, which are seen as regional these days

I thought you would have some occurrence of [ɛt] or [t], which I do not have, but they are part of the traditional language, probably with some regional distribution.

Yes, but I was talking about Standard Swedish, not regiolects or dialects ;)
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-02-05, 19:05

Johanna wrote:Yes, but I was talking about Standard Swedish, not regiolects or dialects

The spoken language is still Standard Swedish, and for example "jag har köpt det" must be pronounced in some way, say "ja a cöpt ät" or "ja a cöpä rä".
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-02-05, 19:26

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Johanna wrote:Yes, but I was talking about Standard Swedish, not regiolects or dialects

The spoken language is still Standard Swedish, and for example "jag har köpt det" must be pronounced in some way, say "ja a cöpt ät" or "ja a cöpä rä".

Standard Swedish can be either written or spoken, and in a few different registers, but you still have to make a difference between the spoken version(s) of that and all the other varieties of the language, and if most people think something sounds regional and not neutral, then it's per definition not standard.

Sure, in the regiolect and dialect around here it's something like [jɑːɑ̆ ɕøptɛt] when you don't stress anything in particular, but [jɑːɑ̆ ˈɕøptɛ] in the regional accent of Standard Swedish, with the /t/ in ⟨köpt⟩ and /d/ in ⟨det⟩ being assimilated. And it really is like this, those who use the enclitic forms use a lot more other regionalisms in general than those who don't, at least in my region.

[jɑː ɑ ˈɕøpɛ ɾɛ] would be interpreted as ⟨jag har köpe det⟩ and either some sort of genuine dialect or simply non-native.
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-02-05, 19:34

Johanna wrote:[jɑː ɑ ˈɕøpɛ ɾɛ] would be interpreted as ⟨jag har köpe det⟩ and either some sort of genuine dialect or simply non-native.

Non-native to Westrogothia I hope you mean, since it is normal Sweonic speech. :D

Johanna wrote:Sure, in the regiolect and dialect around here it's something like [jɑːɑ̆ ɕøptɛt] when you don't stress anything in particular, but [jɑːɑ̆ ˈɕøptɛ] in the regional accent of Standard Swedish, with the /t/ in ⟨köpt⟩ and /d/ in ⟨det⟩ being assimilated. And it really is like this, those who use the enclitic forms use a lot more other regionalisms in general than those who don't, at least in my region.

Ah, that was more what I was after. :!:
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-02-05, 19:39

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Johanna wrote:[jɑː ɑ ˈɕøpɛ ɾɛ] would be interpreted as ⟨jag har köpe det⟩ and either some sort of genuine dialect or simply non-native.

Non-native to Westrogothia I hope you mean, since it is normal Sweonic speech. :D

Still not Standard Swedish ;) And south of Tiveden we don't know that much about Sweonic regionalisms, which is why we'd put it in the genuine dialect or non-native category :P
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Allekanger » 2015-02-05, 21:36

Johanna wrote:And south of Tiveden we don't know that much about Sweonic regionalisms,
I wouldn't worry about it, no one north of Tiveden knows about them either. 8-)

My list looks a bit different, with hässja, broschyr and crescendo with the back sj-sound. Not sure my realizations of /ɕ/ and /rs/ are the same when I try to pronounce them, but I do generally perceive them as the same sound (as the English sh-sound).

Also, [he:] is the way to swing it (<---!). :D
Når trollmora lagt di elva små trolla å bunde fast dom i svansen
Då sjunger o sakta för elva små trolla di vackresta orl o känner
O aj aj aj aj buff...


- svenska, English, español, 日本語, eesti keel, (julevsámegiella, kalaallisut).

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-02-06, 4:20

Hello, sorry I delayed my reply.

@ Johanna: probably I was wrong: I listened again to your recordings. I find in <dusch, push, marsch> you undoubtedly pronounce [ʂ]; you probably pronounce the same sound in <hässja, kanske, broschyr>, and even in <tjata, kela, kjol, tjuta, köl, fascist, crescendo>.
So, yes, you merge them all! It's just I wasn't aware such a merger existed. :oops:

Johanna wrote:The normal pronunciation when that word is stressed or somewhat stressed is [deː] or [dɛː], depending on your exact accent. The important thing to know is that if you use the former you have to pronounce a stressed ⟨är⟩ as [eː], and if you use the latter [ɛː] or you'll sound weird, but as long as you keep to that, both options sound perfectly fine in educated speech.

I can't completely undertand: <det är> has to be either /deː/ or /dɛː/, or either /deː eː/ or /dɛː ɛː/? (In Hedelin, the forms with /eː/ are labelled as eastern ones.)

Johanna wrote:To continue on Jurgen's note, [deːt] and [dɛːt] are pretty rare even among people who use spelling pronunciation for almost every other word, and even when they use them it's pretty much only when they really stress the word.

Yup, so Jurgen's right, but I reckon the real fault is putting /deːt/ as the first choice in the entry, making seem that's the normal/usual pronunciation.

@ Jurgen & Johanna: what you pointed out about <det> is interesting.
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Lyttkens/Wulff has [dɛ:t], [de], [ət].
Hedelin has [dɛ:t], [de:t], [de:], [dɛ], [t], [ə]. The [ə] comes from a faulty worddivision where he puts the r of "rä" with the preceding word.
Garlén has [de:t], [de:], [de].

So, the word really is a general "dä" [dɛ:] but none of these dictionaries gives that as the primary pronunciation and every one actually abstains from mentioning it at all. :shock: Talk about misrepresenting the language. :evil:

Johanna wrote:Anyway, pronouncing ⟨det⟩ as it's spelled is not seen as particularly educated or neutral, if anything it sounds like the person is trying to speak a little too carefully, maybe because Swedish isn't their native language or they're trying to make up for something. Which is why it's weird that that pronunciation is given, together with the enclitic forms, which are seen as regional these days, but not the most common way of saying it, namely [dɛː].

I suppose all those authors avoided to put /dɛː/, because for some reason –although not regional– it maybe has less prestige than /de(ː)/. :?:
But as they give /dɛːt/ and /dɛ/, I frankly cannot understand why they didn't put /dɛː/ as well!! :yep:

Allekanger wrote:My list looks a bit different, with hässja, broschyr and crescendo with the back sj-sound. Not sure my realizations of /ɕ/ and /rs/ are the same when I try to pronounce them, but I do generally perceive them as the same sound (as the English sh-sound).

Where are you from in Sweden? I don't know much about Swedish pronunciation, but maybe I can guess you're from the South?

Allekanger wrote:Also, [he:] is the way to swing it (<---!). :D

Are you referring to <det>?

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby gfl87 » 2015-02-06, 4:27

Oh, where can I found some recordings where I can listen to the damped i & y?

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Allekanger » 2015-02-06, 7:05

gfl87 wrote:Where are you from in Sweden? I don't know much about Swedish pronunciation, but maybe I can guess you're from the South?

I'm from around Uppsala, north of Stockholm.

gfl87 wrote:Are you referring to <det>?

Yes, but it was a joke, it doesn't exist in standard Swedish, so don't mind me. :)
Når trollmora lagt di elva små trolla å bunde fast dom i svansen
Då sjunger o sakta för elva små trolla di vackresta orl o känner
O aj aj aj aj buff...


- svenska, English, español, 日本語, eesti keel, (julevsámegiella, kalaallisut).

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-02-06, 16:49

gfl87 wrote:@ Johanna: probably I was wrong: I listened again to your recordings. I find in <dusch, push, marsch> you undoubtedly pronounce [ʂ]; you probably pronounce the same sound in <hässja, kanske, broschyr>, and even in <tjata, kela, kjol, tjuta, köl, fascist, crescendo>.
So, yes, you merge them all! It's just I wasn't aware such a merger existed. :oops:

The sound I have in ⟨tjata, kela, kjol, tjuta, kjöl⟩ is definitely not [ʂ], I have the same tj-sound as people up north and they differentiate /ɕ/ and /ʂ/, the former being the tj-sound and the latter their only realisation of the sj-sound. I can also hear a clear difference between the sound I have in those words compared to the one in for example ⟨hässja⟩ when listening to the recording; I'm actually surprised the difference is as big as it turned out to be.

Or... I might have [ʃ] for the tj-sound in initial position, I can't really hear the difference between it and [ɕ], but it's not further back than that in any case. Although, I doubt it since it feels different to pronounce than English /ʃ/, more j-ish kind of.

----------

The merger isn't about using the same sound everywhere, it's about having turned three different phonemes into one, but it still has a couple of allophones that depend on the exact environment, and in this case it seems like the allophones are the same sounds as the original phonemes, but the borders between them broke down and they got all scrambled.

The split between the back and front sj-sounds happened first of course, the back sj-sound is comparably new, and without that split this three-way merger probably wouldn't have happened. I mean, the accents that still have only a front sj-sound haven't merged it with the tj-sound, but they have with /rs/.

In the south there is no merger, but that's because they only have the back sj-sound, and their /rs/ is either [ʁs] or [ʀs], so there's nothing very similar to /ɕ/ to merge it with.

There's no merger in Finland either for similar reasons: their sj-sound is [ʃ] or [ɕ], their tj-sound is [t͡ʃ] or [t͡ɕ], and their /rs/ is [ɾs] or [rs]. Which of the two alternatives in each pair someone uses depends on their accent or dialect, there are quite a few in Finland too.

gfl87 wrote:I can't completely understand: <det är> has to be either /deː/ or /dɛː/, or either /deː eː/ or /dɛː ɛː/? (In Hedelin, the forms with /eː/ are labelled as eastern ones.)

I meant that you have to pronounce ⟨det är⟩ either as /deː eː/ or as /dɛː ɛː/, never /deː ɛː/ or /dɛː eː/.

In normal speech one of them or both are usually unstressed though, and then /eː/ may turn into [ɛ] in the unstressed word since the vowel gets reduced and the border between /e/ and /ɛ/ pretty much disappears. Besides, most accents don't even have /e/, only /ɛ/, and that includes those that are as close to a truly neutral one as you get.

gfl87 wrote:Yup, so Jurgen's right, but I reckon the real fault is putting /deːt/ as the first choice in the entry, making seem that's the normal/usual pronunciation.

Mhhm, it's actually the least preferable pronunciation :roll:

Together with /dɛːt/ that is ;)

gfl87 wrote:I suppose all those authors avoided to put /dɛː/, because for some reason –although not regional– it maybe has less prestige than /de(ː)/. :?:

A tiny, tiny bit perhaps, but not really.

/deːt/ and /dɛːt/ are definitely weird to include if you leave /dɛː/ out, since even though they aren't low prestige per se, they sound stupid to most people unless they're really stressed. And a person who has /dɛːt/ when stressing the word extra much has /dɛː/ when stressing it normally.
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-02-06, 19:06

gfl87 wrote:Oh, where can I found some recordings where I can listen to the damped i & y?

I speak like that, but my internet recordings have been so noisy lately, and I have to fix that somehow ... :(
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-02-07, 7:54

The preposition and prefix <till> is pronounced [te:] or unstressed [te] in normal Central Swedish.

Lyttkens/Wulff: [til:] or common [te:].

Hedelin: [tɪl:], [tɪl], [tɪ] colloquial [te], dialectal or folkish also [te:]

Garlén: [tɪl:] or [tɪl] depending on the stress.

In all those cases, the artificial "till" is given precedence, while the usual "te" is pushed aside.

-----

The preposition and prefix <vid> is pronounced [ve:] like the noun <ved>, and not [vi:d] like the adjective <vid>.

Lyttkens/Wulff: [vi:d], colloquially [ve].

Hedelin: [vi:d], [vɪd], [vɪ], spoken language has forms like [ve:].

Garlén: [vi:d].

-----

The preposition <av> is pronounced [o:] or [o:v].

Lyttkens/Wulff: [a:v], colloquially [o:v] or [o:].

Hedelin: [ɑ:v], in dialectally colored speech [o:(v)].

Garlén: [ɒ:v].

The [a] in LW must be a typo.

-----

The preposition <med> is pronounced [mɛ:] or [mɛ], in compounds [mɛ:(d)], unlike the noun <med> [me:d].

Lyttkens/Wulff: [me:d], [mɛ:d], colloquially [me:], [mɛ:], in compounds usually [me:d].

Hedelin: [mɛ:d] or [me:d], colloquially [mɛ:], unstressed [mɛ] or [me], in compounds [me:d]

Garlén: [me:d].

-----

The conjunction <medan> is pronounced [mɛ:dan] or [mɛns].

Lyttkens/Wulff: [me:dan] or [mɛ:dan], colloquial and vulgar [mɛn:]

Hedelin: [me:dan], spoken language and unstressed [medan].

Garlén: [me:dan].

-----

The noun and verb <kedja> has the same ä-vowel as kätting, although the quantity differs there.

Lyttkens/Wulff: [ɕe:dja] or [ɕɛ:dja].

Hedelin: [ɕe:dja].

Garlén: [ɕe:dja].

-----

The noun <huvud> is pronounced [hʉ:vɛ] or [hɵv:ɛ].

Lyttkens/Wulff: [hʉ:vɵd] or [hʉ:vʉd] or [hɵv:ɵd] or [hɵv:ə]

Hedelin: gives <huve> separately [hʉ:və ] or [hɵv:ə], while
<huvud> is [hʉ:vɵd] or [hɵv:ɵd], colloquially [hʉ:vʉ] or [hʉ:və ] or [hɵv:ə]

Garlén: [hʉ:vɵd].

-----

The ending -or is a wicked thing in Modern Swedish. In standard speech it had merged with -er already in the 1600s, but the dominant circles for some reason does not accept this.

The usual plural <or> is thus [ɛr].

Lyttkens/Wulff: [ʊr] or [ɔr] or [ur], vulgar [ər].

Hedelin: [ʊr]

Garlén: [ʊr].

-----

All these dictionaries give <sopa> as [su:pa] which is strange to me. I have a short vowel there, [sʊp:a], and have never heard anything else.
Last edited by Johanna on 2015-02-09, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merging several posts in a row into one.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-02-08, 16:57

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:All these dictionaries give <sopa> as [su:pa] which is strange to me. I have a short vowel there, [sʊp:a], and have never heard anything else.

And I have never heard that word with a short vowel as far as I know.
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-02-09, 17:12

Johanna wrote:
Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:All these dictionaries give <sopa> as [su:pa] which is strange to me. I have a short vowel there, [sʊp:a], and have never heard anything else.

And I have never heard that word with a short vowel as far as I know.

I asked around at work today, and everyone had a long vowel there. :shock: The twilight zone.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2015-02-11, 16:32

gfl87 wrote:Do you Norstedts Svenska Uttalslexikon & Svenska Språknämndens Uttalsordbok too affected, or too artificial, or dated? Why would you disapprove some of their pronunciation. And it would be useful to see some example in that respect.

Shall I continue with more examples, or do the previous ones suffice?

(Sopa was not an example.)
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby TeneReef » 2015-02-20, 14:25

This girl is Croatian,
is her Swedish any good? :hmm:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxYKQQW_-80
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-02-20, 15:37

Nope, I can't make out all of what she's saying and it's pretty clear that she doesn't speak the language at all.

There are quite a few grammatical mistakes in there as well, not to mention one or two mixed a's and ä's... It comes across like someone who knows Swedish on a very basic level first wrote the lines, littered with all those mistakes, and then taught her how to say them.
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Cesare M. » 2015-02-27, 0:02

Yeah I probably speak Swedish better than her and my spoken Swedish is not the best, I am much more proficient in written Swedish.

I did catch utterances that sounded like Swedish words but that was it lol

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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby TeneReef » 2015-03-02, 14:13

Finally I found a song with the uvular pronunciation realized while singing :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SudSj4156A
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Re: Svenskt uttal / Swedish pronunciation

Postby Johanna » 2015-03-02, 18:28

He even sings in an actual Scanian accent :)

Then again, you do come across those that do from time to time, but it's really hard to find things in other regional accents, I can only think of Björn Afzelius (Småland) and Sven-Ingvars (Värmland), and none of them are very modern, while Timbuktu, who sings/raps in a Scanian accent, has had quite a few big hits in recent years.

Finding things sung in a Gothenburg accent is usually pretty easy too, but it's not always very pronounced and might be hard for people who don't know it well to spot. But no one can miss hearing where Håkan Hellström's from when they hear one of his songs :)
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