Lithuanian sounds like...

Varaleiva
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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 13:52

Sol Invictus wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:"these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details.


Give an example of what you're talking about.

You read on:
""these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details. If what theory can not explain, just ignore it. The important things sometimes lies in the detail. A given instance: why is the Latin forms of the word is shorter (dropped, shorted vowels, endings), why the other meaning of the word?"

We could add that Lith. "motina" is the suffix "motė" extension.
In addition, "motė" etymology can not be found in the Indo-European theory framework, but can be explained within the framework of the Lithuanian language. It is one of the Indo-European theory paradoxes.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 13:58

Levike wrote:"Woman" for example can easily become "wife". Or "brother" can easily become "friend".


easily? – how is that?
(not about the figurative meaning of the words I speaking)

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-19, 16:20

Varaleiva wrote:easily? – how is that?

Figurative meanings can easily change to being the basic one.
That happens if the figurative meaning gets used a lot, thus becoming a natural way of using the word.

- This is my girl. (with the sense that this is my girlfriend)
- Me and my bros are going out. (where bro is your friend and not your male sibling)

Take the English word "mate" as example, which for most is rather used for "friend" and not for "romantic partner".

Another example is the Romanian word "ceas" which was the default word for "time" and also "hour", but now for the most of us it just means "clock".
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Sol Invictus » 2016-03-19, 16:48

Varaleiva wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:"these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details.


Give an example of what you're talking about.

You read on:
""these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details. If what theory can not explain, just ignore it. The important things sometimes lies in the detail. A given instance: why is the Latin forms of the word is shorter (dropped, shorted vowels, endings), why the other meaning of the word?"

We could add that Lith. "motina" is the suffix "motė" extension.
In addition, "motė" etymology can not be found in the Indo-European theory framework, but can be explained within the framework of the Lithuanian language. It is one of the Indo-European theory paradoxes.


I don't see what that has to do with Indo-European - you seem to be talking about developments within particular languages, not about language comparision and reconstruction of earlier common languages
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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 17:38

Sol Invictus wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:"these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details.


Give an example of what you're talking about.

You read on:
""these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details. If what theory can not explain, just ignore it. The important things sometimes lies in the detail. A given instance: why is the Latin forms of the word is shorter (dropped, shorted vowels, endings), why the other meaning of the word?"

We could add that Lith. "motina" is the suffix "motė" extension.
In addition, "motė" etymology can not be found in the Indo-European theory framework, but can be explained within the framework of the Lithuanian language. It is one of the Indo-European theory paradoxes.


I don't see what that has to do with Indo-European - you seem to be talking about developments within particular languages, not about language comparision and reconstruction of earlier common languages


I think that it is impossible to find the kind of parent language without understanding the evolution of language.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 17:50

Levike wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:easily? – how is that?

Figurative meanings can easily change to being the basic one.
That happens if the figurative meaning gets used a lot, thus becoming a natural way of using the word.

- This is my girl. (with the sense that this is my girlfriend)
- Me and my bros are going out. (where bro is your friend and not your male sibling)

Take the English word "mate" as example, which for most is rather used for "friend" and not for "romantic partner".

Another example is the Romanian word "ceas" which was the default word for "time" and also "hour", but now for the most of us it just means "clock".


This is a figurative meaning of words. The old meaning of words not lost after all. Unlike what happens in the creole languages.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-19, 18:08

Varaleiva wrote:This is a figurative meaning of words. The old meaning of words not lost after all. Unlike what happens in the creole languages.

Let me repeat, figurative meanings that are used a lot become natural therefore not figurative as for the original meaning it can be preserved or dropped.

The Romanian "ceas" meant only "time" and now it means only "clock".

Or take the Romanian word "sărutare" which only means "to kiss" and it comes from the Latin "salutare" which is not kissing, but greeting. In many cultures when meeting someone you kiss them on the cheek so you can see how the Latin verb "to greet" became the Romanian "to kiss".
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 18:13

Levike wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:This is a figurative meaning of words. The old meaning of words not lost after all. Unlike what happens in the creole languages.

Let me repeat, figurative meanings that are used a lot become natural therefore not figurative as for the original meaning it can be preserved or dropped.

The Romanian "ceas" meant only "time" and now it means only "clock".

Or take the Romanian word "sărutare" which only means "to kiss" and it comes from the Latin "salutare" which is not kissing, but greeting. In many cultures when meeting someone you kiss them on the cheek so you can see how the Latin verb "to greet" became the Romanian "to kiss".


This only confirms what I said.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-19, 18:15

Varaleiva wrote:This only confirms what I said.

How?

For Romanians "sărutare" is not a figurative meaning anymore, it's the sole meaning of the word, the only meaning it has.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 18:23

Varaleiva wrote:
Levike wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:This is a figurative meaning of words. The old meaning of words not lost after all. Unlike what happens in the creole languages.

Let me repeat, figurative meanings that are used a lot become natural therefore not figurative as for the original meaning it can be preserved or dropped.

The Romanian "ceas" meant only "time" and now it means only "clock".

Or take the Romanian word "sărutare" which only means "to kiss" and it comes from the Latin "salutare" which is not kissing, but greeting. In many cultures when meeting someone you kiss them on the cheek so you can see how the Latin verb "to greet" became the Romanian "to kiss".


This only confirms what I said.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-19, 18:29

Explain what you mean. That this happened only because Romanian is a creole of Latin?

And if you say that that's what you mean then it's just your claim, nothing more.

"Ceas" changed its meaning quite recently for example.
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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby linguoboy » 2016-03-19, 18:31

Varaleiva wrote:Of course, it can be said that most of the so-called Indo-European languages are creole languages. And even with several layers of mixing.

It can be said, but it shows a complete misunderstanding of the linguistic usage of the term "creole". There's a whole range of forms of language mixing that fall far, far short of actual creolisation. For instance, if you had said "most of the so-called Indo-European languages are koïnés", I wouldn't have made the same objection.
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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 19:24

linguoboy wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:Of course, it can be said that most of the so-called Indo-European languages are creole languages. And even with several layers of mixing.

It can be said, but it shows a complete misunderstanding of the linguistic usage of the term "creole". There's a whole range of forms of language mixing that fall far, far short of actual creolisation. For instance, if you had said "most of the so-called Indo-European languages are koïnés", I wouldn't have made the same objection.


I think that this is just different creolisation degree, the principle is the same.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 19:38

Levike wrote:Explain what you mean. That this happened only because Romanian is a creole of Latin?

And if you say that that's what you mean then it's just your claim, nothing more.

"Ceas" changed its meaning quite recently for example.


Creole language is not systematic in such a degree as a primary language. Linguistic elements do not have such a strong connection with each other. They are simplified and isolated. It is much easier to change the meaning of the language elements.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby linguoboy » 2016-03-19, 19:45

Varaleiva wrote:I think that this is just different creolisation degree, the principle is the same.

No, it's more than just a difference in degree. For creolisation to occur, you need a complete break in the normal process of transmission so that the grammar is basically invented anew. You don't see that in any Indo-European languages until the age of colonisation.

Varaleiva wrote:Creole language is not systematic in such a degree as a primary language. Linguistic elements do not have such a strong connection with each other. They are simplified and isolated. It is much easier to change the meaning of the language elements.

I'm not sure what any of this is supposed to mean. Have you actually done any reading on creole languages?
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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 20:00

linguoboy wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:I think that this is just different creolisation degree, the principle is the same.

No, it's more than just a difference in degree. For creolisation to occur, you need a complete break in the normal process of transmission so that the grammar is basically invented anew. You don't see that in any Indo-European languages until the age of colonisation.

Varaleiva wrote:Creole language is not systematic in such a degree as a primary language. Linguistic elements do not have such a strong connection with each other. They are simplified and isolated. It is much easier to change the meaning of the language elements.

I'm not sure what any of this is supposed to mean. Have you actually done any reading on creole languages?


OK. I had to use a more general term: language mixing.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Sol Invictus » 2016-03-19, 20:38

Varaleiva wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:"these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details.


Give an example of what you're talking about.

You read on:
""these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details. If what theory can not explain, just ignore it. The important things sometimes lies in the detail. A given instance: why is the Latin forms of the word is shorter (dropped, shorted vowels, endings), why the other meaning of the word?"

We could add that Lith. "motina" is the suffix "motė" extension.
In addition, "motė" etymology can not be found in the Indo-European theory framework, but can be explained within the framework of the Lithuanian language. It is one of the Indo-European theory paradoxes.


I don't see what that has to do with Indo-European - you seem to be talking about developments within particular languages, not about language comparision and reconstruction of earlier common languages


I think that it is impossible to find the kind of parent language without understanding the evolution of language.



What makes you think it doesn't involve understanding of internal evolution of language?

Varaleiva wrote:
Levike wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:This is a figurative meaning of words. The old meaning of words not lost after all. Unlike what happens in the creole languages.

Let me repeat, figurative meanings that are used a lot become natural therefore not figurative as for the original meaning it can be preserved or dropped.

The Romanian "ceas" meant only "time" and now it means only "clock".

Or take the Romanian word "sărutare" which only means "to kiss" and it comes from the Latin "salutare" which is not kissing, but greeting. In many cultures when meeting someone you kiss them on the cheek so you can see how the Latin verb "to greet" became the Romanian "to kiss".


This only confirms what I said.


How about this - a few days ago I came accross etymology of Latvian word "sakta" (a traditional brooch), which said it comes from word "segt", which these days means only "to cover", but it must have also meant "to pin together" judging by it's use in a few folk songs. The language used in these folk songs is not different from modern Latvian in any way, besides using that one word with a meaning it no longer has in Latvian used today and the language used in these folk songs isn't more than a few centuries old, so we know very well that between then and now no crealization process occured in which modern Latvian formed, so it seems more likely that one meaning just natirally fell into disuse.

Apgailestauju, mano anglų kalba nėra tokia gera, rašau su 'google translate' pagalba. Deja jokių minties subtilybių tokiu būdų anglų kalba išreikšti neįmanoma.

That explains things, although...

Nesu kreolų kalbų specialistas, tas tiesa.


No shit, really? Maybe look up the meaning of term before using it
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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 21:28

Sol Invictus wrote:No shit, really? Maybe look up the meaning of term before using it


I think the Latvian language is also passed creolisation in some degree.
My understanding of creolisation processes is sufficient to observe creolisation signs, but not sufficient to prove it. At least not yet.
In my understanding is that all languages have undergone creolisation processes, only one less while other very significant. By "creolisation" I understand language mixing and resulting change.

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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Sol Invictus » 2016-03-19, 21:50

Varaleiva wrote:I think the Latvian language is also passed creolisation in some degree.
My understanding of creolisation processes is sufficient to observe creolisation signs, but not sufficient to prove it. At least not yet.
In my understanding is that all languages have undergone creolisation processes, only one less while other very significant. By "creolisation" I understand language mixing and resulting change.

https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreol%C5%B3_kalbos
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Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby linguoboy » 2016-03-19, 22:42

Varaleiva wrote:In my understanding is that all languages have undergone creolisation processes, only one less while other very significant. By "creolisation" I understand language mixing and resulting change.

As I said in my first response, your understanding is false. All languages change--in fact, all living languages are in the process of changing right now. All languages undergo some degree of mixing as a result of language contact, although some (e.g. English, Japanese) obviously more than others (e.g. Navajo, Finnish). "Creolisation" doesn't refer to either of these phenomena. "Creolisation" describes a very specific process by which a new language comes into being in a more-or-less spontaneous fashion due to a catastrophic disruption in the process of transmission.

Let me try explaining it in another way: the ancestors of today's present speakers of Latvian also spoke a form of Latvian. So did their ancestors, and their ancestors before them, and so forth. As you go back each generation, you will find the language slightly different, but at no point is there a dramatic difference between the languages spoken by one generation and one coming before or after. A grandparent won't understand every word their grandchild speaks to them, but there is very little about their speech which they will find foreign.

That's not the case with creoles. Go back far enough in the history of, say, Haitian Creole or Papiamentu and suddenly the earlier generations aren't speaking a form of Haitian Creole or Papiamentu at all. They aren't speaking anything with a lexicon derived from European languages. They are speaking West African languages or Arawakan languages. Within a generation or two, there was a complete break between one line of transmission and the beginning of an entirely new one. It's not like what my ancestors experienced, where there was a period of stable bilingualism before the younger generation gradually stopped speaking German and Irish. The ancestors of these creole speakers were thrown into a situations where they had no common language with which to communicate and had to invent one.

That's what creolisation is. Your distinction between "primary languages" and "creole languages" simply isn't tenable. Once a creole language is born, it undergoes the same process of change, language contact and borrowing, and elaboration as any other natural language. (Some linguists, e.g. John McWhorter, believe that historical creoles can still be distinguished synchronically from non-creoles, but they're in the minority.)
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