Lithuanian sounds like...

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-17, 6:25

First of all, I'm not defending the Indo-European theory. That you're doing. And you must provide evidence that the theory is based on facts, and theory are not only someone's assumptions and speculations.
I can not deny the facts, which is not given.

fact
n 1: a piece of information about circumstances that exist or
events that have occurred; "first you must collect all
the facts of the case"
2: a statement or assertion of verified information about
something that is the case or has happened; "he supported
his argument with an impressive array of facts"
3: an event known to have happened or something known to have
existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of
the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell"
4: a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses
are not facts"

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2982
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Sol Invictus » 2016-03-17, 11:47

I didn't say you were. When you are challenging a widely accepted theory, saying that facts prove it wrong then you should be the one demonstrating how it's wrong, but instead, while we have done our best to explain the theory to you, you haven't provided any facts or sources to support your claims that it's wrong.
I speak:  (lv) (en) I understand some:  (de) (ru) Toying with:  (es)

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-17, 13:05

Sol Invictus wrote:I didn't say you were. When you are challenging a widely accepted theory, saying that facts prove it wrong then you should be the one demonstrating how it's wrong, but instead, while we have done our best to explain the theory to you, you haven't provided any facts or sources to support your claims that it's wrong.


I would ask you not to distort my sayings.
I will say it again:
1. Indo-European theory has never been proven;
2. Indo-European theory unsupported by any facts;
3. those who will try to find the facts, they will not succeed, because they finds only the opinions and statements without any clear evidence of the correctness of such statements.
4. I can not deny some evidence, which no one can give.

I can add that "widely accepted theory" is accepted only for political and religious reasons and that science has nothing to do with it. Therefore, the Indo-European theory is fiction. And it does not matter how much paper has been written about the Indo-Europen theory.

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2982
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Sol Invictus » 2016-03-17, 14:04

Varaleiva wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:I didn't say you were. When you are challenging a widely accepted theory, saying that facts prove it wrong then you should be the one demonstrating how it's wrong, but instead, while we have done our best to explain the theory to you, you haven't provided any facts or sources to support your claims that it's wrong.


I would ask you not to distort my sayings.
I will say it again:
1. Indo-European theory has never been proven;
2. Indo-European theory unsupported by any facts;
3. those who will try to find the facts, they will not succeed, because they finds only the opinions and statements without any clear evidence of the correctness of such statements.
4. I can not deny some evidence, which no one can give.

I can add that "widely accepted theory" is accepted only for political and religious reasons and that science has nothing to do with it. Therefore, the Indo-European theory is fiction. And it does not matter how much paper has been written about the Indo-Europen theory.

Okay, I'm done. It's no use arguing with someone whith claims any arguments put forward to them are just beliefs and opinions, but at the same time doesn't provide anything to refute them or provide alternative explanation.
I speak:  (lv) (en) I understand some:  (de) (ru) Toying with:  (es)

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-17, 15:14

I ask you to provide facts showing the Indo-European theory was valid. Such facts give you failed.
... So that disprove the IE theory I do not need other alternative theory. IE theory never been proven.
Last edited by Varaleiva on 2016-03-17, 15:27, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6082
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-17, 15:25

Varaleiva wrote:The fact is: Indo-Europeans is fiction. There was no Indo-Europeans.

After reading some posts I'm a bit confused at this point.

Are you saying that Indo-European as a language didn't exist?
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-17, 15:29

Levike wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:The fact is: Indo-Europeans is fiction. There was no Indo-Europeans.

After reading some posts I'm a bit confused at this point.

Are you saying that Indo-European as a language didn't exist?


Yes, Indo-European as a language never existed.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6082
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-17, 15:37

Varaleiva wrote:Yes, Indo-European as a language never existed.

So what's your explanation for important words like "to be" being very similar in older Russian and Latin?

sum, es, est, sumus, estis, sunt

есмь, еси́, есть, есмы́, е́сте, суть
(esm', esi, est, esmy, este, sut')

Or the first numbers from 1 to 10 between, let's say, still Latin and Russian?
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-17, 15:57

Levike wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:Yes, Indo-European as a language never existed.

So what's your explanation for important words like "to be" being very similar in Russian and Latin?

sum, es, est, sumus, estis, sunt

есмь, еси́, есть, есмы́, е́сте, суть
(esm', esi, est, esmy, este, sut')

Or the first numbers from 1 to 10 between, let's say still Latin and Russian?


First of all, you are incorrect. Second example is not a Russian. Russian is: я есть, ты есть, мы есть, вы есть, они есть.
Second, the linguistic similarities do not necessarily arise from the fact that the languages are descended from the same ancestor. A good example - modern international words, or modern creole languages.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6082
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-17, 16:12

Varaleiva wrote:Second example is not a Russian. Russian is: я есть, ты есть, мы есть, вы есть, они есть.

What I wrote was the original "to be" Russian verb, the one that fell into disuse sometime around the 19 century. And "есть" (what you wrote) is a left-over.

Second, the linguistic similarities do not necessarily arise from the fact that the languages are descended from the same ancestor.

A lot of words can easily be replace/taken from other languages, (like English/French words in a lot of languages), but there is a core vocabulary, that is words that are hard to be replaced, like the "to be" verb or the numbers 1, 2, 3, which are still recognisable in a lot of Indo-European languages.

And that's the thing, the core vocabulary is similar between the IE languages.
Verbs like "to be" or "to see", the numbers, the pronouns, etc.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-17, 18:44

Levike wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:Second example is not a Russian. Russian is: я есть, ты есть, мы есть, вы есть, они есть.

What I wrote was the original "to be" Russian verb, the one that fell into disuse sometime around the 19 century. And "есть" (what you wrote) is a left-over.

No, this is not the nineteenth century Russian. Which is different from the current only by orthography.
What you have provided is a so-called ancient Russian:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D1 ... 1%8B%D0%BA

Levike wrote:
Second, the linguistic similarities do not necessarily arise from the fact that the languages are descended from the same ancestor.

A lot of words can easily be replace/taken from other languages, (like English/French words in a lot of languages), but there is a core vocabulary, that is words that are hard to be replaced, like the "to be" verb or the numbers 1, 2, 3, which are still recognisable in a lot of Indo-European languages.

I do not agree. Mainly language is based on phonetics and grammar. These things are the constants for speech and changing the slowest. Words can be easily borrowed and changed its form. Of course, some of the words is less volatile than others. But these things are less important for the language than grammar and phonetics.

Levike wrote:And that's the thing, the core vocabulary is similar between the IE languages.
Verbs like "to be" or "to see", the numbers, the pronouns, etc.

Vocabulary can only be a secondary factor, only after the grammar and phonetic similarity, to determine the linguistic proximity.
In practice, the closeness of dictionary shows the closeness of cultural relations, between nations, languages carriers. Differences of grammar and phonetic indicates language linguistic distance. Closeness of vocabulary and differences in grammar and differences in phonetics shows a mix of different languages. Of course, there are various proximity and mixing options.
Languages can be learned, to varying degrees, they can be mixed in different ways. These processes can be monitored in a multilingual environment today.
Also, these processes took place in the past.

...I think now you understand why the Indo-European theory has no basis in fact?
...and for what purpose this theory were created...
See the original name of this theory.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6082
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-18, 17:32

Varaleiva wrote:What you have provided is a so-called ancient Russian:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D1 ... 1%8B%D0%BA

Okay, but in any case it does show that the Latin and the old Russian to be are similar.

Even their conjugation pattern, since you mentioned grammar being more important.

And look at the present tense conjugation used in Italian and Lithuanian.

Also take a look at the noun declension between Latin and Lithuanian:
mater, matris, matri, matrem
motina, motinos, motinai, motiną


Levike wrote:Mainly language is based on phonetics and grammar. These things are the constants for speech and changing the slowest.

Phonetics and grammar are important, but the core vocab cannot be disregarded, as I pointed out amongst words some change much slower like pronouns and prepositions which are similar amongst IE languages and others can change really easily.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-18, 18:06

There was not "old russian", but (in english terms):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_East_Slavic

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-18, 18:28

Levike wrote:
Varaleiva wrote:
Levike wrote:Mainly language is based on phonetics and grammar. These things are the constants for speech and changing the slowest.

Phonetics and grammar are important, but the core vocab cannot be disregarded, as I pointed out amongst words some change much slower like pronouns and prepositions which are similar amongst IE languages and others can change really easily.


The presence of such phenomena do not automatically prove the existence of Indo-European languages.
Each phenomenon has its role and relative importance. Grammar is more important than vocabulary.
If you consider the most important factor in the lexicon, then modern european-based creole languages should be attributed to Indo-European family.

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-18, 18:45

Of course, it can be said that most of the so-called Indo-European languages are creole languages. And even with several layers of mixing.

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-18, 20:19

Levike wrote:Also take a look at the noun declension between Latin and Lithuanian:
mater, matris, matri, matrem
motina, motinos, motinai, motiną



Interesting, but closer to the Latin "mater" by form , is the Lithuanian word "woman":
mater, matris, matri, matrem
moteris, moteries, moteriai, moterį


Well, apparently, these things is too complicated for the Indo-European theory...

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6082
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-19, 10:44

Varaleiva wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_East_Slavic

The article begins with "Old East Slavic, also referred to as Old Russian and Rusian".

So it depends on your point of view.

The presence of such phenomena do not automatically prove the existence of Indo-European languages.

Actually when declinations, conjugation patterns and words like preposition/pronouns are similar it is a good indicator that they have common roots.

Interesting, but closer to the Latin "mater" by form , is the Lithuanian word "woman"

Well, apparently, these things is too complicated for the Indo-European theory...

It is interesting, but I don't know what you mean by "these things are too compilcated for X", it's these patterns in grammar (declinations, conjugation, etc) that are a primary indicator.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

Varaleiva
Posts: 123
Joined: 2014-05-08, 18:40
Gender: male
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Varaleiva » 2016-03-19, 11:33

Translation inaccuracies cause misunderstandings. It is important to distinguish. By russian terminology "old Russian" (rus. "старорусский") is the language of 15-17 centuries, and "ancient Russian" ("Old East Slavic", rus. "древнерусский") is the language before.

"these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details. If what theory can not explain, just ignore it. The important things sometimes lies in the detail. A given instance: why is the Latin forms of the word is shorter (dropped, shorted vowels, endings), why the other meaning of the word?

I would like to ask, why, you provide examples only of extinct languages?
Well, not including the Lithuanian language.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6082
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Levike » 2016-03-19, 12:08

Varaleiva wrote:Translation inaccuracies cause misunderstandings. It is important to distinguish. By russian terminology "old Russian" (rus. "старорусский") is the language of 15-17 centuries, and "ancient Russian" ("Old East Slavic", rus. "древнерусский") is the language before.

Agreed.

"these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors...

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean.

How do you explain the differences?
Languages always change, sometime because of foreign influences, sometime on their own.
And as you said, some parts of the language, like declinations, conjugation change in a slower rate.
When looking if X and Y are related you're interested in these key points.

Why mater means mother and moteris means woman?
Simple, words can easily change meanings if they have many in common.

"Woman" for example can easily become "wife". Or "brother" can easily become "friend".

I hope these are the questions you meant.
I would like to ask, why, you provide examples only of extinct languages?

I am 22 years old.
If someone looks at a photo of me when I was 15 year old they could recognise me.
If I show them a photo of me when I was 5 year old then I'm more different.
If I show them a picture of when I was a baby then it's hard to guess that it's me.

The 5 year old me is more similar to the 10 year old me than the 22 year old me is.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2982
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Re: Lithuanian sounds like...

Postby Sol Invictus » 2016-03-19, 13:32

Varaleiva wrote:"these things are too compilcated for X" – Indo-European theory as a rule is limited to the average simplified factors. Without going into details.


Give an example of what you're talking about. They do take into account grammar and phonology, and other factors. You seem to be thinking that they just compare words that have the same meaning, which is not the case. In fact, earlier in this thread we allready discussed a case in which research based on lexical comparision is critisized by linguists and how using that method they have arrived to conclusions that don't match with generally accepted ideas about Indo-European languages and even known historical facts
I speak:  (lv) (en) I understand some:  (de) (ru) Toying with:  (es)


Return to “Lithuanian (Lietuvių kalba)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron