Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

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kalemiye
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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby kalemiye » 2009-04-08, 23:32

it is a kef, but in ottoman turkish kef = k, y, g, ğ, n. The differenciation among them isnt noted with strokes until Yeni Osmanlica, but those are not used in the books used to learn ottoman, i dont know why. nef was written as a kef with three dots on it in this period.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby Karavinka » 2009-07-23, 3:07

While I was doing some random surfing, I came across the existence of this book.

Image

オスマン語文法読本, 勝田 茂 著
Osumango Bunpoutokuhon
Grammar Textbook of Ottoman Language by Shigeru Katsuta, 2002

A modern textbook of Ottoman Turkish in Japanese
Available from Amazon Japan

Start learning Japanese ;)
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby kalemiye » 2009-07-23, 11:20

noir wrote:While I was doing some random surfing, I came across the existence of this book.

Image

オスマン語文法読本, 勝田 茂 著
Osumango Bunpoutokuhon
Grammar Textbook of Ottoman Language by Shigeru Katsuta, 2002

A modern textbook of Ottoman Turkish in Japanese
Available from Amazon Japan

Start learning Japanese ;)


Somebody posted this book in some other thread :) It says Osmanlıca grameri ve okuma metinleri. Ottoman is definitely a language that nowadays people that want to teach themselves without any prior knowledge of Turkish cannot achieve through any book in English afaik :cry: .
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Mert
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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby Mert » 2009-07-23, 11:34

I think the word above is wrong written: عثانليجه That sentence shouldn't have "ث" letter, because there is no like a letter in Turkish. It should have been written like: عسانليجه

By the way, why isn't it written "او" instead of "ع"?

Renata, why did you choose to be "pencil"? :D
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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-07-23, 18:05

The spelling goes back to the Arabic version of the name Osman, ʿUthman, spelt عثمان. It reminds me of how in English, "Othman" used to be used for "Ottoman".

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby kalemiye » 2009-07-23, 20:52

Kalemiye is how the "social class" of the Ottoman bureaucrats used to be called like. It means "People of the pen" ;).

ث is used in Ottoman Turkish, since the spelling of Arabic words is kept as it is in Arabic (except for ۃ). Therefore, ث is a character that is used in Ottoman Turkish, but doesn't keep the original Arabic sound (in Arabic it sounds as th, as in "think"), and it is read as s.

ص is also read as plain s, while the Arabic sound is definitely different from that of س :)

This incoherence in the spelling is one of that reasons that makes the Ottoman alphabet not suitable for Turkish.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby kalemiye » 2009-07-23, 20:57

By the way guys, I am sorry for not having been posting lately, but I have been busy with some paperwork, preparing a trip, etc.

I will be posting an example of Enver Paşa's attempt to adapt Arabic script to Turkish, it is something very interesting, but I must warn you that it is very difficult to read (and I guess that is the reason why it was not successful).

I will be posting also what is left of Aladdin's story.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-07-23, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby Mert » 2009-07-23, 21:04

kalemiye wrote:Kalemiye is how the "social class" of the Ottoman bureaucrats used to be called like. It means "People of the pen" ;).



There is an unit at the palaces of justice in Turkey. Its name is kalem. The ones who work in the kalem arrange courts' documantaries.
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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby kalemiye » 2009-07-24, 19:28

Image

This is Enver Paşa's attempt of a "new" alphabet for Turkish...
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby arab.american » 2009-07-25, 4:32

kalemiye wrote:Image

This is Enver Paşa's attempt of a "new" alphabet for Turkish...


It never connected!!! :shock:
Bilingual in [flag]ar[/flag] & [flag]en[/flag]
Formal education (but weak in) [flag]fr[/flag], [flag]sgn-us[/flag], [flag]he[/flag] & [flag]fa[/flag]
Done some field work on [flag]ti[/flag] & [flag]lkt[/flag]
Interested in [flag]am[/flag], [flag]arc[/flag], [flag]en_old[/flag], [flag]en_mid[/flag], [flag]es-CL[/flag], [flag]hi[/flag], [flag]mt[/flag], [flag]syc[/flag], [flag]taq[/flag], [flag]tzm[/flag], [flag]tli[/flag], [flag]tr[/flag], [flag]ur[/flag], [flag]ug[/flag], [flag]yi[/flag]

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby linguanima » 2009-07-25, 4:49

snovymgodom wrote:Odd. On my screen it looks identical to kaaf.
But I think I know what you're talking about. Is it the velar nasal? [N]


Yup, it is a velar nasal [ŋ]. In Uyghur it is represented by a kef with three dots: ڭ, read as 'nge' [ŋe].
Şərqiy hünərlər: [flag]ug[/flag] [flag]tr[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag] [flag]fa[/flag] [flag]mn[/flag]
Ğərbiy hünərlər: [flag]en[/flag] [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]el[/flag]

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby linguanima » 2009-07-25, 4:51

arab.american wrote:
kalemiye wrote:Image

This is Enver Paşa's attempt of a "new" alphabet for Turkish...


It never connected!!! :shock:


How blasphemous! :lol:
Seriously, unconnected Arabic letters are just ugly...
Şərqiy hünərlər: [flag]ug[/flag] [flag]tr[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag] [flag]fa[/flag] [flag]mn[/flag]
Ğərbiy hünərlər: [flag]en[/flag] [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]el[/flag]

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby kalemiye » 2009-07-25, 20:56

linguanima wrote:
arab.american wrote:
kalemiye wrote:Image

This is Enver Paşa's attempt of a "new" alphabet for Turkish...


It never connected!!! :shock:


How blasphemous! :lol:
Seriously, unconnected Arabic letters are just ugly...


It is so difficult to read. "Başlangıç'' is the word written on the top of the second page (the one on your right).
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby zhiguli » 2009-08-13, 3:18

Nice to see people interested in this language and renata is doing a great job with the texts etc, way to go
Unfortunately I don't have much to contribute since I haven't been studying Modern Turkish, let alone Ottoman, for a good while.
There is a reader "The Literature of the Turks: a Turkish Chrestomathy" by Wells, which is a good sampler of newer and older texts. The transcription is a bit...erratic, but people who have a solid grounding in Modern Turkish shouldn't have too much trouble. It is available in both electronic and paper versions.
When I was in Istanbul I managed to get a few old books and newspapers (like this one which is selling for big bucks on ebay) there's the famous book bazaar, "Sahaflar çarşısı", where there are plenty of antiquarian booksellers and it's possible to get some things in Ottoman quite cheaply.
Another option for those living outside of Turkey is nadirkitap.com, which is the Turkish version of abebooks/alibris. Never tried ordering from them, though.

edit: and here is someone's private collection of Ottoman books, with lots of nice pictures:
http://www.muallimnurikutuphanesi.com/
The whole collection is up for sale:

Kütüphanemi ve Koleksiyonumu satmaya karar vermis bulunuyorum . Bölüm / Blok halinde de satilabilir . Eger Kütüphane kismi bir bütün olarak satin alinirsa Koleksiyon / Arsiv hediye edilecektir.

I have decided to sell my valuable library / collection .The sale is going to be as a whole or in parts . If the library is bought as a whole , the archive will be given as a present.

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby kalemiye » 2009-08-13, 8:32

Thanks for your contribution Zhiguli.

Actually Ottoman Turkish is studied in Turkish universities in the programs of Turkology and History, afaik. Also students of other programs can choose it.

The books used to learn Ottoman Turkish are basically 30 pages of rules, and 200 pages of selected texts, which is good for beginners. Nevertheless, knowing Modern Turkish, at least to an intermediate level is needed, since most of this books don't include a key with the transcription of the texts.

When I am back in Spain I will keep posting texts in the "Ottoman texts" section for everybody to follow. I have a book that includes the key for half of the texts included in the book. I will take a picture of it when I am back from holidays for everybody to see.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby Mert » 2009-08-13, 18:23

kalemiye wrote:
When I am back in Spain


:(
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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby yunus » 2009-08-23, 20:45

First of all i am admired to the friends here who are trying to learn Ottoman Turkish. But there is something that i am not agree with.
Some says "unfortunately it is necessary to learn Modern Turkish first." Of course you do. Why are you trying to learn Ottoman Turkish without learning Modern Turkish anyway. For example if you were trying to learn Classical Chinese without learning Today's Chinese, Chinese people would thought that you are a little crazy. Even for me getting used to Ottoman Turkish texts a little bit difficult. ( I have studied some Arabic and Persian and i read lots of Turkish Classical books ) I think learning Modern Turkish is not so bad and it would be more easier to learn it first.

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby kalemiye » 2009-08-24, 6:52

yunus wrote:First of all i am admired to the friends here who are trying to learn Ottoman Turkish. But there is something that i am not agree with.
Some says "unfortunately it is necessary to learn Modern Turkish first." Of course you do. Why are you trying to learn Ottoman Turkish without learning Modern Turkish anyway. For example if you were trying to learn Classical Chinese without learning Today's Chinese, Chinese people would thought that you are a little crazy. Even for me getting used to Ottoman Turkish texts a little bit difficult. ( I have studied some Arabic and Persian and i read lots of Turkish Classical books ) I think learning Modern Turkish is not so bad and it would be more easier to learn it first.


Well, I know people in Turkey that are studying Latin, but have no idea of any modern Latin Language (i.e.: Spanish, French, Italian, and a long etc.). There might be people for whom knowing Ottoman Turkish or having a grasp of it would be useful for their studies, but bear no interest in really learning Modern Turkish.

I am learning both Ottoman Turkish and Modern Turkish, but it was very difficult for me to get the grasp of Ottoman Turkish since when I came to Turkey my knowledge of Turkish was very basic. At that point, I would liked having a book written in English in which I could get started, instead of struggling with "Osmanlica Dersleri" for quite a long while learning rules and rules that I didn't really understand. Also, when it comes to Aruz, it would have been useful to have the rules written in English with an explanation and translations of poems.

Now that my knowledge of Turkish has increased to an intermediate level, I am comfortable using books in Turkish, but at first I wasn't and I had nothing to rely in (except bothering all my Turkish friends asking things over and over again). Also, I bought a book that had lots of images and examples, and any many exercises of reading and practicing also reading and writing in Rika, and it was a great help.

I agree learning Modern Turkish isn't a waste of time, but if there was a small basic textbook of Ottoman in English, it would help many foreigners struggling with both languages.
"Demə Məcnuna dəli, bəlkədə Leyla dəlidir
Eşq olan yerdə bütün aqilü dana dəlidir.
"

Not available
"Düşdü yenə dəli könlüm gözlərinin xəyalinə,
Kim nə bilir bu könlümün fikri nədir, xəyalini.
"

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby zhiguli » 2009-08-26, 3:06

In fact there are books in English (and French/German) on google books linked to above. There's also this book:
http://www.routledge.com/shopping_cart/ ... 0415493383
but it's just a bit expensive. I've also seen a three-part textbook from some American university, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.
But I agree that knowing Modern Turkish is a good idea, there are some things that won't make sense if you go straight to Ottoman Turkish without learning it.

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Re: Ottoman Turkish عثمانلی توركجه سی

Postby zhiguli » 2009-08-31, 9:43

Another site:
http://osmanlicadersleri.com/
actually a blog, with lots of pdfs and extracts of Ottoman texts (like this physics textbook)
Another place where you can find a lot of Ottoman material is gittigidiyor.com, the Turkish ebay. No idea if they ship outside the country, though.
I've been looking through some of the newspapers I got and surprised to find they are not _so_ hard to read, especially "Resimli Gazete" which reminds me a bit of modern-day tabloids with its crazy pictures of beached whales and nude African tribesmen, and stories like دنیانك اك بویوك خوروزی ("the world's biggest cock") or visits to Tibet and so on:
Image
The headline reads:
آمریقاده جسامت و غرابت ابتلاسندن بر نمونه
Amerikada cesamet ve garabet ibtilâsından bir nümune
"An example of the addiction to/passion for hugeness and oddity/strangeness in America"


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