Kısa sorular / Short Questions

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby voron » 2014-09-08, 17:28

Not a question but an observation.

In the part of Istanbul where I live (Üsküdar) there are a few set phrases people use regularly but textbooks don't usually mention. I'll make a short phrase list:

Selam aleyküm - aleyküm selam (greeting, it's more common than merhaba, iyi geceler etc)
Eyvallah (thank you)
Abi, abla (used to address a man or a woman, respectively, and people use it with 2nd person singular. There seems to be no word to address a group of people - you pick one from the crowd and ask your question to him/her)
Müsait bir yerde (said in a minibus to ask the driver to stop)

And when you enter a shop and ask for something you start with
Abi, kolay gelsin...

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby Ektoras » 2014-09-08, 21:54

They're common everywhere I think.
And a note for Eyvallah: it's usually accompanied with a hand gesture. You put your hand (fingers open) on your chest while saying it.

Here's a photo of Eminem saying eyvallah:
http://www.officialpsds.com/images/thum ... d57015.png

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby modus.irrealis » 2014-09-09, 13:06

Are there any expressions in Turkish that depend on how religious someone is? I mean, for example, are there greetings that are more likely to be used if you're very devout, or does this not play a role in Turkish?

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby Ektoras » 2014-09-09, 17:21

Yeah, there are. For instance Selam(ın) Aleyküm / Aleyküm selam is mostly used by the devouts.

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby voron » 2014-10-23, 7:30

olmaya devlet cihanda bir nefes sıhhat gibi
I can't understand why the dative is used here with "olmaya" . Could someone explain?

My friends puzzle me with some Turkish sayings recently which take me some time to decipher, such as this one:

ayranı yok içmeye atla gider sıçmaya
(he doesn't have ayran to drink (but) goes to sh*t on horseback = he spends unproportionally with his income)
I first understood "atla" as the imperative of atlamak and it didn't make sense at all.

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby modus.irrealis » 2014-10-23, 9:20

voron wrote:olmaya devlet cihanda bir nefes sıhhat gibi
I can't understand why the dative is used here with "olmaya" . Could someone explain?

I think "olmaya" here is the negative optative (istek kipi). The phrase is Ottoman, right? As far as I know, the optative was used a lot more, although I don't know what kind of nuance it would give here.

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby voron » 2014-10-24, 8:07

Thanks modus, it makes much more sense.

(We have this accountant at my work place who sends us daily notes with religious or educating contents, and this was one of his phrases).

Another question:
I always have problems with saying smth like: "Changing the server name", since I have to choose between several different options. Quoting from a conversation with Ektoras:
1. Sunucu adı değiştirme
2. Sunucu adı değişimi
3. Sunucu adını değiştirme
4. Sunucu adının değiştirilmesi

According to his advice, #3 or #4 are generally preferred, and #1 would be preferred in case of genitive chains:
Sunucu adı değiştirme problemleri üzerine bir makale

Yesterday I saw yet another option on a prohibitive sign:
Burada tütün ürünleri tüketilmesi yasaktır.
(I took a photo but it turned out to be illegible)

Question: Is it grammatically correct? I would assume the genitive on "tütün ürünleri".
(Now that I'm asking it, I remember the grammar book saying something about genitivizing the subject of the "-dık-" participle, with an option of leaving it in the subject case when the subject is indefinite... I didn't know that it could be applied to the -ma- verbal nouns too).

I saw another prohibitive note in a park seemingly combining all options #1-#4 (walking on the grass is prohibited, throwing litter is prohibited etc). I'll take a photo if I have a chance.

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby Ektoras » 2014-10-24, 11:11

I believe, the difference between
X yapılması vs X'in yapılması
has to do with whether or not X is a definite object.

Observe:
O tarihlerde sınav yapılması uygun değil. (Any exam would be inappropriate.)
O tarihlerde sınavın yapılması uygun değil. (That specific exam would be inappropriate.)

So, it's forbidden to consume any tobacco product. Not just the one we warned you about yesterday, for example.

----------------------------

As to your previous question about olmaya, to which modus.irrealis seems to have provided a very fine answer, I think, maybe, the nuance in using the subjunctive, or optative, whatever it's called, is: May there never be a treasure more valuable than good health. or May we never give more value to a treasure than to our health. or May the day never come when health is less valuable than an object. or something along those lines.
It's just a speculation of mine, don't take it as the gospel truth.

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby voron » 2014-10-24, 11:31

Ektoras wrote:O tarihlerde sınav yapılması uygun değil.

So when the subject is indefinite am I correct that there are 3 different options:
sınav yapılması
sınav yapma
sınav yapmak

Perhaps I can try and relate them to Russian equivalents to have them make more sense to me:
Сдавание экзамена
Сдача экзамена
Сдавать экзамен

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby Ektoras » 2014-10-24, 11:47

Yes, that's it. But we can can use an indefinite adjective and still use a genitive:
Herhangi bir sınavın yapılması - This is also possible. The genitive is optional here.

Some indefinite adjectives require a plural, in that case the genitive is obligatory:
Bazı sınavların yapılması

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby voron » 2014-10-24, 14:45

Thank you!

I'll try and take this photo I talked about. The sign is right next to the Üsküdar bay and it uses several ways of expressing the nominalized verb and its subject in the "it's prohibited to <..>" sentence.

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-11-08, 20:37

Ektoras wrote:Here's a photo of Eminem saying eyvallah:
http://www.officialpsds.com/images/thum ... d57015.png

Is that really Eminem? I thought he was blonde, not a brunette. :lol:

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby nadi » 2015-01-01, 19:25

I think this title will remain idle until someone answers if Eminem is blond or not :roll: By the way, Benim Eminem esmer güzelidir :D

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby TheStrayCat » 2015-01-09, 18:27

Merhabalar! -zs-, "olmazsa" kelimesinde gibi, nasıl telâffuz edilir? [zz] gibi mi [ss] gibi mi?
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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby nadi » 2015-01-09, 19:22

TheStrayCat wrote:Merhabalar! -zs-, "olmazsa" kelimesinde gibi, nasıl telâffuz edilir? [zz] gibi mi [ss] gibi mi?


İkisi de değil. Her harf kendi sesi ile okunur, yani [zs] olarak. http://tr.forvo.com/word/olmazsa/#tr

Ancak, konuşma dilinde sıklıkla ses benzeşmesi olur ve [ss] şeklinde telaffuz edildiğini görürüz.

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby TheStrayCat » 2015-01-09, 20:01

Anladım, sağ ol!
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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2015-01-10, 9:40

I've started a bit with Turkish again.

I'm using Duolingo but actually that's meant for Turkish people who want to learn English so it doesn't really fit. So what's confusing me now is how to use cases when using the verb 'to eat' (yemek).

For example, according to Duolingo, it is:
I eat chicken - tavuğu yerim.

But:

I eat beef - Ben et yerim

Also:

Biz kahve içeriz versus kız çorbası içer.

What am I missing here...?
Interests: lots.
Motivation: little.

Corrections appreciated.

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby TheStrayCat » 2015-01-10, 14:44

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I've started a bit with Turkish again.

I'm using Duolingo but actually that's meant for Turkish people who want to learn English so it doesn't really fit. So what's confusing me now is how to use cases when using the verb 'to eat' (yemek).

For example, according to Duolingo, it is:
I eat chicken - tavuğu yerim.

But:

I eat beef - Ben et yerim

Also:

Biz kahve içeriz versus kız çorbası içer.

What am I missing here...?


I'm also a beginner, but from what I read in my textbook, the accusative suffix is added when the object is, roughly speaking, definite. Like:

Gazete okudum - I read a newspaper.
Gazeteyi okudum - I read the newspaper.

However it doesn't totally correspond to English "the", at least because it's always used with proper names. I even recall some examples when it was used together with "bir". Let's wait for a native speaker to explain this better.
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A1:  (fr) (hr)

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby voron » 2015-01-10, 15:13

TheStrayCat explained it very well.
With definite objects, we use the accusative case marker.
With indefinite objects, we don't use any case marker.

It applies not only to the verb içmek but to any verb which can have a direct object.

kız çorbası içer.

I don't think it's grammatical. It should either be
Kız çorbasını içer - Here, both possessive and accusative suffixes ared used with çorba, or
Kız mercimek çorbası içer - Here "çorbası" is part of the noun phrase "mercimek çorbası" (you can replace "mercimek" with any other soup type).

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Re: Kısa sorular / Short Questions

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2015-01-10, 15:56

Thanks for the explanations! Not sure if I totally understand it (what do you mean with proper names?) but at least I suddenly managed to do the lessons correctly. Weird though, I really can't remember this at all, even though I've learn't some Turkish in the past.

You are right, it was çorbasını indeed.
Interests: lots.
Motivation: little.

Corrections appreciated.


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