The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby neutral » 2010-02-08, 10:57

There are by far much more foreign words in English(French,Latin,Greek,old Norse,old German...)than English ones.
The fact that Turkish is so mixed is not bad and proves that it is a cosmopolitan,rich and open civilisation.
Oh Anatolia how many civilisations and peoples lived there:hattis,kaskis,palaics,hurri,gutti,akkadians,arameans,assyrians,hittites
,lydians,lykians,paphalagonians,georgians,laz,mingrelians,roma,
hemshini,arabs,ottomans,turks,medians,kurds,zazas,circassians,
poles,hungarians,chechens,albanians,bosnians,pomaks,goranis,
bulgarians,cumans,colchis,persians,phrygians,celts,thracians,
greeks,macedonians,troyans,azeris,uzbeks... and many others peoples.

Today Turkey population is the mixing of all those peoples genetically speaking and the symbiosis and synthesis between all those cultures and civilisations culturally speaking.

Anatolia is the home of Homerus,st Paul,Midas,Coerus,Hattushili,Hector,Herodotus,Mustafa Kemal etc....
And also the homeland of one of the first built towns and agricultural sites(çatalhöyük,çayönü...)and home of 2 of the world's 7 wonders.

Sadly after this reform,majority of our peoples dont even understand speech to Turkish youth of the great Mustafa Kemal,whereas Persians can read and understand 10 th century Ferdowssi's shahname and Arabes can read and undestand 5th century mulleqat al sab3(7 poems)and also 7 th century coran.
Last edited by neutral on 2010-02-08, 22:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby kalemiye » 2010-02-08, 14:15

I think that is a problem that could be easily fixed with in-depth lessons of Turkish literature.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby Mert » 2010-02-08, 16:48

After 6th class, the Ottoman Turkish lesson should be added into the curriculum.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby Hypocrisy » 2010-02-08, 23:13

Mert wrote:After 6th class, the Ottoman Turkish lesson should be added into the curriculum.


It's mosty likely to encounter an aggressive resistance coming from the secular segment of society.

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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-09, 0:20

neutral wrote:Sadly after this reform,majority of our peoples dont even understand speech to Turkish youth of the great Mustafa Kemal,whereas Persians can read and understand 10 th century Ferdowssi's shahname and Arabes can read and undestand 5th century mulleqat al sab3(7 poems)and also 7 th century coran.


the fact is that an average arab cannot understand those 5th and 7th century scripts. i don't know how you get that info but it's not true. as i know, arabic language differs from al-magrib to shatt al-arab at least. the language in qur'an is different from contemporary language. that's why most of muslims still do not understand that :) they read and think they got it but what they understood is not what was ment there.

communities in anatolia, in villiges, in towns, they were always speaking the same turkish. thinking that people did understand the speech to turkish youth in 1927 would be a mistake. who were understanding that those years were only the educated minority. nothing deteriorated since those years. most of the people weren't understanding what they were listening to and still they do not understand it in 2010. :( be sure that the percentage of the people grasping the original speech to turkish youth in 1927 is the same with the recent percentage. the rest learned turkish as some call it "a purified turkish" and it is not necessary to read 11th century divan poems for those people, since they can easily read 11th century yunus emre who was one of them. it's their culture and it was their culture. nothing has changed. divan poems of limited poets living in istanbul around ottoman dynasty had never been the part of people. turks is crimea, gagauzia and bulgaria did not undergo any language reform, since they weren't inside the territory of turkey during the reform. it is clear that they speak the same language more or less and that proves that the language reform did not change the language and culture drastically after 1930s.

of course, the manupulation on turkish in 1930s was not 100% succesfull. nevertheless, criticizing the language reform by blaming it as if it caused people to forget their language and made people illiterate is groundless. the reform was not just about the words but also about alphabet. writing turkish with arabic alphabet was really ridiculus if you consider the wovel harmony. although all roots of words were written with their consonants mainly, without proper wovels and with strange suffixes words were like egyptian hieroglyphs or chinese words. then why did turks adopted it at first hand? the answer is the power of islam only. like christian turks adopted greek alphabet in anatolia and cyrillic in gagauzia. with new turkish alphabet, it wouldn't had been reasonable to keep all those persian and arabic words. it is also true that officials went to the extremes in the reform sometimes.
Last edited by utku on 2010-02-09, 1:12, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-09, 0:22

Mert wrote:After 6th class, the Ottoman Turkish lesson should be added into the curriculum.


high school would be more proper. for 11th or 12th grades.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-09, 0:25

Hypocrisy wrote:
It's mosty likely to encounter an aggressive resistance coming from the secular segment of society.


that was paranoic, you know...
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby kalemiye » 2010-02-09, 10:17

utku wrote:
Hypocrisy wrote:
It's mosty likely to encounter an aggressive resistance coming from the secular segment of society.


that was paranoic, you know...


Unfortunately, that is so true.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2010-02-09, 22:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby Mert » 2010-02-09, 19:53

utku wrote:
writing turkish with arabic alphabet was really ridiculus if you consider the wovel harmony. although all roots of words were written with their consonants mainly, without proper wovels and with strange suffixes words were like egyptian hieroglyphs or chinese words. then why did turks adopted it at first hand? the answer is the power of islam only. like christian turks adopted greek alphabet in anatolia and cyrillic in gagauzia. with new turkish alphabet, it wouldn't had been reasonable to keep all those persian and arabic words. it is also true that officials went to the extremes in the reform sometimes.



Iranian Azeris, Uyghurs write Turkish in Arabic script. Turks used the Arabic script during 1000 years over. It's nonsense to think that the Arabic alphabet works in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uyghuristan, Arab countries, but Turkey .

The Arabic alphabet isn't so pratic as the Latin one for Turkish, but every language can be written in every alphabet. Did no Turks understand the texts in Turkish before the alphabet revolution in 1928?

Removing the alphabet was an operation which was realised to keep away Turks from the middle east.

although all roots of words were written with their consonants mainly, without proper wovels and with strange suffixes words were like egyptian hieroglyphs or chinese words.


That''s totally wrong! All wovels are written in Turkish with the Arabic script, but "e" wovel. "E" wovel is only used in the capital and the end of the word.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby neutral » 2010-02-09, 21:17

Quran is understood by Arabs or at least by the ones who went to secondary schools.

Yunus Emre is from 13 th century not 11 th century(in 11 th century Turkish was most likely not even spoken in Turkey).

Yunus Emre's Turkish is distinct from modern Istanbul Turkish,and of course Turkish used by villagers will be most logically simpler and poorer than the Turkish used by litterate peoples,this is true for all languages(french,english,german etc...)and not only Turkish,but still Turkish used by villagers contained many foreign words.

Here a poem from Yunus Emre and I will mark foreign words with red color:

Aşk Bezirganı

Aşk bezirganı
Sermaye canı
Bahadır
gördüm
Cana kıyanı

Zehi bahadır
Can terkin
urur
Kılıç mı keser
Himmet giyeni

Kamusun bir gör
Kemterin er gör
Alu görmegil
Palas giyeni

Tez çıkarırlar
Fevkal'ulaya
Şol isa
gibi
Dünya koyanı

Tez indirirler
Tahtesseraya Bir karun gibi
Dünya kovanı

Aşık olanın
Nişanı vardır
Melamet olur
Belli beyanı

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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-12, 13:56

Mert wrote:
although all roots of words were written with their consonants mainly, without proper wovels and with strange suffixes words were like egyptian hieroglyphs or chinese words.


That''s totally wrong! All wovels are written in Turkish with the Arabic script, but "e" wovel. "E" wovel is only used in the capital and the end of the word.


ياش اوتوز بش يولك ياريسى ايدر

yas otuz bes yolun yarisi eder

دانته كبي اورتاسنده يز عمرك

dante gibi ortasindayiz ömrün

well, let's go...

yas ياش : it's ok, i'm fine with that :)

otuz اوتوز : it's also cool :)

bes بش : ambiguity starts there. and ب and then comes ش. where is the letter e? of course not there. here it is becoming like french. and be sure it's gonna be worse. :( (at least situation will keep better than egyptian hieroglyphs and chinese :) )

yolun يولك : "yol" seems good. than comes -un suffix which implies ilgi eki (suffix for noun phrase) what do we see there? just one sound, though a turkish speaking individial must sound a vowel and a consonant there. what to do with ك than. as you see we can not implement wovel harmony in writing. nevertheless vowel harmony is the character of turkish. it is not acceptable to compromise it. before "n", you have to write there a vowel which is chosen as compatible with vowel harmony rules, hence it is "u" . what is the use of "u" there? "kaynastirma harfi" (fusing sound: i'm not sure it is called in literature in english like that :) ) the last word of second verse is عمرك and same rule applies there too.

yarisi ياريسى : here, ى stands for yari-s-i . wow. look at that! in يولك we have missed the "kaynastirma harfi" but here we implement it. what a consistency? :) and at the end ى sounds "i". in contrary, check this: استانبولى ديكله يورم كوزلورم قاپالى istanbu'u dinliyorum gözlerim kapali. ى becomes "u" this time in istanbul-u. hmmmm, it seems like ى for everything. rule? no rule! harmony? no harmony either.

eder ايدر : i really can not explain this. i took it from original ottoman script. اي are the first two letters there. they are supposed to sound "e". ok... i can handle this. but at the end we miss a vowel again. در must sound "der". as dividing words into syllables is the nature of turkish, it is reasonable to consider در as a syllable. but the vowel is absent there again. "d?r" and inserting vowels between consonants is the nature of arabic, so it must have a logic. as you see there while we are implementing ottoman alphabet, crucial aspects of turkish is missed. it is not turkish, nor arabic... what is it then? bullshit!

dante دانته : why not ك for "n", why is it ن ? every fool can make up a reason and a complex rule for that but all in all it won't suit to the nature of turkish.

gibi كبي : now, ك sounds "g". sometimes ك sounds "n". the reason mey be "nasal n" and regular "n". however it is not employed properly in ottoman scripts. at the end, you always have to memorize written form of the whole word. is it with ك or ن but, in turkish you only need to know how do syllables sound and you combine them as you write. irregularities are so minor.

ortasindayiz اورتاسنده يز : using ه for "a". someone wrote that like that i'm replicating this from the book, by the way. i would use دا for the syllable "-da" which implies "ismin bulunma hali". again a rule which can not be explained by the nature of turkish. maybe arabic can explain it? oops we are not writing arabic here, i forgot, sorry :) and at he end يز for "yiz" implies 1st person plural "genis zaman" or "simdiki zaman" i'm not sure :) you tell me the ambiguity there.

and also you tell me the strange things in استانبولى ديكله يورم كوزلورم قاپالى .

consequently, turkish is from venus arabic is from mars... arabic alpabet is useful for the languages in which conjugations and derivations are realized by inserting sounds into the roots and adding prefixes and suffixes at the same time. turkish alphabet suits my language the best and it is for synthetic languages (doesn't mean sentetik in turkish by the way, it doesn't mean made-up), for syllables and for vowel harmony.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby Hypocrisy » 2010-02-12, 14:09

Whoa, you put things straight, Utku. Nothing else to say about it.

utku wrote:consequently, turkish is from venus arabic is from mars... arabic alpabet is useful for the languages in which conjugations and derivations are realized by inserting sounds into the roots and adding prefixes and suffixes at the same time. turkish alphabet suits my language the best and it is for synthetic languages (doesn't mean sentetik in turkish by the way, it doesn't mean made-up), for syllables and for vowel harmony.


Seconded!

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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-12, 14:18

Mert wrote:
utku wrote:
writing turkish with arabic alphabet was really ridiculus if you consider the wovel harmony. although all roots of words were written with their consonants mainly, without proper wovels and with strange suffixes words were like egyptian hieroglyphs or chinese words. then why did turks adopted it at first hand? the answer is the power of islam only. like christian turks adopted greek alphabet in anatolia and cyrillic in gagauzia. with new turkish alphabet, it wouldn't had been reasonable to keep all those persian and arabic words. it is also true that officials went to the extremes in the reform sometimes.



Iranian Azeris, Uyghurs write Turkish in Arabic script. Turks used the Arabic script during 1000 years over. It's nonsense to think that the Arabic alphabet works in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uyghuristan, Arab countries, but Turkey .

The Arabic alphabet isn't so pratic as the Latin one for Turkish, but every language can be written in every alphabet. Did no Turks understand the texts in Turkish before the alphabet revolution in 1928?

Removing the alphabet was an operation which was realised to keep away Turks from the middle east.


first of all, any nation may use arabic alphabet, although it is not suitable for their language. it does not mean that they made the best choise. in fact, no none makes a choise for that. the adoption of an alphabet is more politics and can be explained in historical context and importance of religian shouldn't be forgotten.

second, did non of the turks understand the texts in Turkish before the alphabet revolution in 1928?
most of people was illiterate, so they were unable to do that. reason was predominantly the incompatibility between alphabet and the language. those who were highly educated could read and write of course but their language were quite different from the spoken language of people. that's why i stated before that peole were not understanding the meaning of mustafa kemal atatürk's speech to turkish youth, since people were speaking the language of yunus emre.

removing the alphabet was not an operation which was realised to keep away Turks from the middle east. all middle eastern countries were torn apart by the winners of world war 1 and the comprehension of middle eastern societies were not able to grasp it. aren't they unable to understand it today too?
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-12, 14:44

neutral wrote:Quran is understood by Arabs or at least by the ones who went to secondary schools.

Yunus Emre is from 13 th century not 11 th century(in 11 th century Turkish was most likely not even spoken in Turkey).

Yunus Emre's Turkish is distinct from modern Istanbul Turkish,and of course Turkish used by villagers will be most logically simpler and poorer than the Turkish used by litterate peoples,this is true for all languages(french,english,german etc...)and not only Turkish,but still Turkish used by villagers contained many foreign words.

Here a poem from Yunus Emre and I will mark foreign words with red color:

Aşk Bezirganı

Aşk bezirganı
Sermaye canı
Bahadır
gördüm
Cana kıyanı

Zehi bahadır
Can terkin
urur
Kılıç mı keser
Himmet giyeni

Kamusun bir gör
Kemterin er gör
Alu görmegil
Palas giyeni

Tez çıkarırlar
Fevkal'ulaya
Şol isa
gibi
Dünya koyanı

Tez indirirler
Tahtesseraya Bir karun gibi
Dünya kovanı

Aşık olanın
Nişanı vardır
Melamet olur
Belli beyanı


it is not enough to go secondary school to learn 5th century arabic.

right, yunus emre is from 13th century.

considering that turks were immigrated to the area before malazgirt battle in 1071, turkish was an anatolian language in 11th century. at 11th century, turkish was spoken in anatolia by christian turks called karamanid. their alphabet was greek.

moreover, turkey is not limited with anatolia only. turkish tribes speaking turkish were migrated balkans long before 11th century and their language was the same with those turks' language in anatolia.

you'd better compare this poem of yunus emre with the poems of mehmet akif ersoy and bayburtlu zihni. which of them is closer to yunus emre? I chose here two poems randomly.

Yıkmış Çadırların Göç Etmiş Leyla

Yıkmış çadırların göç etmiş Leyla
Vardım ki boş kalmış yar otakları
Dağı mesken etmiş biçare Mecnun
Akıtmış gözünden kan ırmakları

Zeyd ile göndermiş Leyla'ya name
Dedi iyi getirdim ağyarı kama
Akıbet yar oldun İbniselama
Neyledin ettiğin o misakları

Zihni'yim akıttım didem yaşların
Yedi yıl bekledim bulak başların
Dağıt bu derneği sav savaşların
Bozuldu kabail ittifakları.

Bayburtlu Zihni


BAYRAM

Âfâk bütün hande, cihan başka cihandır;
Bayram ne kadar hoş, ne şetâretli zamandır!

Bayramda güler çehre-i mâ'sûm-i sabâvet,
Ümmîd çocuk sûret-i sâfında ıyandır

Her cebhede bir nûr-i mücerred lemeânda;
Her dîdede bir rûh demâdem cevelândır.

Âlâm-ı hayâtın iki kat büktüğü ecsâd
Feyzindeki te'sîr ile âsûde revandır.

Ferdâ-yı sükûn perveridir sâl-i cidâlin,
Nevmîd düşen kalbe ümîd-âver-i candır.

Heycâ-yi maîşetteki feryâd-ı mehîbin
Dünyâda biraz dindiği an varsa bu andır.

Subhunda bahârın şu sabâhat bulunur mu?
Bak çehre-i gabrâya: Nasıl şen, ne civandır!

Her sînede bir kalb-i meserret darabanda,
Her kalbde bir âlem-i eşvâk nihandır.

.
.
.
.

M. Akif Ersoy

(Ersoy's was too long so i cut it off)
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-12, 14:49

kalemiye wrote: Unfortunately, that is so true.


what's true?
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby kalemiye » 2010-02-12, 15:50

utku wrote:
kalemiye wrote: Unfortunately, that is so true.


what's true?

This:
hypocrisy wrote:It's mosty likely to encounter an aggressive resistance coming from the secular segment of society.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby kalemiye » 2010-02-12, 15:58

Late Ottoman Turkish is as artificial as you can get, having a more Turkish grammar in use and the Latin alphabet I think was good, but I don't quite see the point of changing the vocabulary.

Ottoman Turkish was the richer and most versatile language in the Middle East and it's a pity it is not used as such anymore, but let's not decry the language reform. I think it made Turkish easier to write and read and in general it helped raising the country's literacy level, along with other measures.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-12, 19:09

kalemiye wrote:Late Ottoman Turkish is as artificial as you can get, having a more Turkish grammar in use and the Latin alphabet I think was good, but I don't quite see the point of changing the vocabulary.

Ottoman Turkish was the richer and most versatile language in the Middle East and it's a pity it is not used as such anymore, but let's not decry the language reform. I think it made Turkish easier to write and read and in general it helped raising the country's literacy level, along with other measures.


nobody is hanged because of using bombastic ottoman jargon, hence anyone preferring to use it is free to use it. and be sure that a notable number of people who were developed themselves in rhetoric somehow adopts such a high language. i don't understand how can people claim that they are not permitted to use a high language. it depends on person whether they adopt it. of course it requires spending time on reading, thinking writing. some people grow lazy and do nothing about their language skills and then blame language reform as if it was the only reason of their dim language skills. what are they copmlaining about in fact? no language reform is powerful enough to regulate the words to be used. so called language reform was not the action of changing the vocabulary. it was a project conducted by türk dil kurumu who suggested new words, revived ancient turkish words and revised the grammar rules based on new alphabet as a result of this project. it was not such a big deal like banning words.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby utku » 2010-02-12, 19:23

kalemiye wrote:
utku wrote:
kalemiye wrote: Unfortunately, that is so true.


what's true?

This:
hypocrisy wrote:It's mosty likely to encounter an aggressive resistance coming from the secular segment of society.


what makes this mythical secular segment distinctive out of other segments if they are assumed to be existing? religious? distinction brings out its opponent. no one has the right to talk as if turkish nation is broken apart into secular and religious segments. another thing is that secularism is not defined for the segments of society or individuals. it's a term for the state. talking about secular segments of society is nonsense.
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Re: The purified Turkish-Öz Türkçe

Postby kalemiye » 2010-02-12, 19:30

utku wrote:
kalemiye wrote:Late Ottoman Turkish is as artificial as you can get, having a more Turkish grammar in use and the Latin alphabet I think was good, but I don't quite see the point of changing the vocabulary.

Ottoman Turkish was the richer and most versatile language in the Middle East and it's a pity it is not used as such anymore, but let's not decry the language reform. I think it made Turkish easier to write and read and in general it helped raising the country's literacy level, along with other measures.


nobody is hanged because of using bombastic ottoman jargon, hence anyone preferring to use it is free to use it. and be sure that a notable number of people who were developed themselves in rhetoric somehow adopts such a high language. i don't understand how can people claim that they are not permitted to use a high language. it depends on person whether they adopt it. of course it requires spending time on reading, thinking writing. some people grow lazy and do nothing about their language skills and then blame language reform as if it was the only reason of their dim language skills. what are they copmlaining about in fact? no language reform is powerful enough to regulate the words to be used. so called language reform was not the action of changing the vocabulary. it was a project conducted by türk dil kurumu who suggested new words, revived ancient turkish words and revised the grammar rules based on new alphabet as a result of this project. it was not such a big deal like banning words.


I am not saying it is not permited to use high language :|, but definitely nobody would write anything as that example of poetry of Mehmet Akif Ersoy anymore, nor would use the same mechanism of creating new words as Ottoman Turkish would use (vatanperver vs yurtsever, for instance), nor take words from Persian prefering loanwords from Western languages such as karizmatik, pozitif, centilmen or tişört to name a few examples.

I neither said that the language reform was restricted to the action of changing vocabulary nor , but definitely I think that part was not necessary and in my opinion is one of the factors why people has trouble to understand Ottoman Turkish, nor that words were banned, but definitely many are not used nowadays and have been replaced by neologisms :).
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