How should these Consonants be Pronounced?

[Lazar Taxon]

I found a pdf file on Dead Languages at http://venus.unive.it/canipa/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=pdf but there's some odd stuff there on Classical Greek, and some that is wrong, like missing out on the fact (or as close to a fact as you can get) that Classical Greek had both /e:/ and /ε:/, as well as /o:/ (or /u:/) and /ɔ:/, so 7 long vowels vs. 5 short vowels. So I wonder what his reasoning is with Latin as well.

No, he's basically in agreement with the conventional phonemics, it's just that he uses his own expanded and highly (overly?) precise version of IPA. (He's transcribed /ε:/ and /ɔ:/ as extremely narrow diphthongs, and /e:/ and /o:/~/u:/ as [eɪ] and [oʊ].)

Do you know if Canepari anywhere gives his reasons for his reconstruction?

Uh, not as far as I can tell. I would like to know what his methods are.

EDIT: And yeah, that PDF is horribly, horribly inaccurate in its description of Ancient Greek phonology.

In what way?

[modus.irrealis]

No, he's basically in agreement with the conventional phonemics, it's just that he uses his own expanded and highly (overly?) precise version of IPA. (He's transcribed /ε:/ and /ɔ:/ as extremely narrow diphthongs, and /e:/ and /o:/~/u:/ as [eɪ] and [oʊ].)

It's still problematic in a lot of ways. What evidence is there that Pre-Classical /e:/ and /ei/ or /o:/ and /ou/ merged as diphthongs, or at least more "diphthongy" than the other long vowels? And even if there were I don't see how η is a better candidate for /ee/ than ει, especially when you consider contractions and compensatory lengthening. When he says that there are 5 long vowels, he must be claiming something more than that he just chose to arbitrarily call five of the phonemes long vowels, and I don't see how anything but a 7-long-vowel system makes sense for Classical Greek.

But in general, the values given for the vowels are just odd and I would really like to see what led him to these conclusions. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. E.g. even those who see a difference in quality between short and long ι, like Sturtevant, have the long vowel be the more open.

There are issues with the consonants too. For example he thinks that [ŋ] is an allophone of /n/ but at the same time thinks that γν is [ŋn] when non-initial. How is that possible when you have words like γεννῶ with /nn/ which is [nn]? (I might be misinterpreting his notations here, though.)

And why does he have /s/ as [z] before /b,d,g/ but not /m/, when the evidence is, if anything, stronger for the latter?

[KingHarvest]

He also should point out what dialect he's dealing with as the sounds can be very different depending on which dialect you're talking about. ει and ου (υ was originally [u], not [y] - It only changed to [y] in Attic) originally represented both the diphthongs that they would appear to represent AND [e:] and [o:] respectively, and then the diphthongs conveniently merged with [e:] and [o:]. ε was [ɛ], η [ɛ:]; and ο [ɔ], ω [ɔ:].

His discussion of ζ is just bizarre. I don't know why he thinks that it was derived from PIE [ts] and then inexplicably was voiced. It corresponds to original PIE [zd] and [di] as PIE and Proto-Greek [ts] turned into [s] initially and [ss] when between vowels. His insistence that it was [z] and [zz] in the Classical Period is anomalous (and I've never seen anyone say it was geminated even after the Classical period, though I suppose it would make sense). It was either [zd] or [dz] (personally, [zd] makes more sense to me as Aristotle describes the sound as sigma and delta) in the Classical period.

[alkeides]

He also should point out what dialect he's dealing with as the sounds can be very different depending on which dialect you're talking about. ει and ου (υ was originally [u], not [y] - It only changed to [y] in Attic) originally represented both the diphthongs that they would appear to represent AND [e:] and [o:] respectively, and then the diphthongs conveniently merged with [e:] and [o:]. ε was [ɛ], η [ɛ:]; and ο [ɔ], ω [ɔ:].

His discussion of ζ is just bizarre. I don't know why he thinks that it was derived from PIE [ts] and then inexplicably was voiced. It corresponds to original PIE [zd] and [di] as PIE and Proto-Greek [ts] turned into [s] initially and [ss] when between vowels. His insistence that it was [z] and [zz] in the Classical Period is anomalous (and I've never seen anyone say it was geminated even after the Classical period, though I suppose it would make sense). It was either [zd] or [dz] (personally, [zd] makes more sense to me as Aristotle describes the sound as sigma and delta) in the Classical period.

Can you cite any source for the shift to [y] occuring only in Attic? Also, would you happen to know the time period of the change? The guys over at textkit say an [u] pronunciation would be like stressing every initial Latin syllable, but I don't think it'd be that extreme, especially for Homeric greek, would it?

[modus.irrealis]

Can you cite any source for the shift to [y] occuring only in Attic?

I always thought that it was generally thought to have shifted in Ionic as well, but now I can't find any sources that take a definite stand on that. But outside the Attic-Ionic dialect group, Buck in his Greek Dialects says that in a lot of dialects there are indications (like writing ου for original υ under the influence of the Attic alphabet) that /u/ never shifted. With Laconian, there's also its modern day descendant Tsakonian which preserves /u/ in words.

Also, would you happen to know the time period of the change? The guys over at textkit say an [u] pronunciation would be like stressing every initial Latin syllable, but I don't think it'd be that extreme, especially for Homeric greek, would it?

I think one hint is the use of qoppa in inscriptions -- if you look at http://books.google.ca/books?id=gTJnU8O ... 1#PPA22,M1 it says that in the early 6th century B.C. qoppa was regularly used before o-vowels but is "poorly attested" before υ, and takes that as evidence that the shift had already happened. And if this shift took place in the entire Ionic-Attic group, which had already split up, it's possible that it had taken place much earlier, although I don't think anyone knows for sure.

[KingHarvest]

No one can pinpoint very exactly when [u] shifted to [y] and [o]/[ou] shifted to [u] beyond saying it happened before the end of the Classical period.

Do you happen to know anything about the phonology of Griko, modus? I know very little about it aside from it not being descended from Koine like Tsakonian and unlike Demotic and all the other major Greek languages/dialects.

[modus.irrealis]

Do you happen to know anything about the phonology of Griko, modus? I know very little about it aside from it not being descended from Koine like Tsakonian and unlike Demotic and all the other major Greek languages/dialects.

Not much. To be honest, even though I find it the topic interesting, I know very little about Modern Greek dialects besides the very basic stuff.

[KingHarvest]

Yes, almost all the information I can find on Modern Greek dialects is in either Greek or German, neither of which am I conversant enough in to read academic treatises.

[obler9]

Do you happen to know anything about the phonology of Griko, modus? I know very little about it aside from it not being descended from Koine like Tsakonian and unlike Demotic and all the other major Greek languages/dialects.

Not much. To be honest, even though I find it the topic interesting, I know very little about Modern Greek dialects besides the very basic stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YG4RA1R ... re=related

[lama su]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YG4RA1R ... re=related

troppo bello il grecano! per caso sai se ne esiste una grammatica?

[obler9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YG4RA1R ... re=related

troppo bello il grecano! per caso sai se ne esiste una grammatica?

Filippo Condemi, Grammatica Grecanica, Coop. Contezza, Reggio Calabria, 1987;

Filippo Violi, La nuova Grammatica e Sintassi Grecanica, Camera del Commercio Italiana per la Grecia, Atene (testo bilingue italiano-greco);

Filippo Violi, Grammatica sintassi e lessico della lingua greco-calabra, Iiriti, Reggio Calabria, 2004.

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788887935608/vi ... si-lessico

[lama su]

grazie!

appena avrò un attimo di tempo andrò a cercarle