ego - latina

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ego - latina

Postby ego » 2007-07-09, 12:51

Salvete,

I have decided to have exams in December in order to be accepted to the Greek Philology School of the University of Crete and I'll be tested in three subjects: modern Greek, ancient Greek and Latin. You know now why I have opened this thread.
I had no knowledge of Latin till now, and I have started studying yesterday. Till now I have learnt the first and second declension, the declension of personal pronouns and the pronunciation rules. I will be asked to analyze some part of "de bello Gallico", book 1. Ioannes told me it is easy and small, I hope so. Does anyone here know it as well?

I'd like to make my first question: Where are 1st p. verbs in -eo stressed? Like studeo, valeo etc.

Thanks

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Postby dunkelwald » 2007-07-09, 16:21

The "e" of such a verb is stressed, as it's the second syllable counting backwards and long. [If it was short, the third syllable counting backwards would be stressed]

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Postby ego » 2007-07-09, 16:30

Good thanks. I knew that rule but I didn't know if the is short or long

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Postby dunkelwald » 2007-07-09, 17:01

Despite I said something different only minutes ago [because I'm sure we learn[t] it that way in school, I'm going to ask my teacher when holidays are over!], I - more or less by accident - found out now that the "e" seems not to be long in the first person singular, and in the third persons [which in the latter cases wouldn't make any difference concerning the stress], so I hope that somebody else with better knowledge than I've got can check this again.

I'm really sorry for making things that confused. :?

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Postby Alatius » 2007-07-09, 21:00

The "e" is indeed short, so it is "stúdeo", "váleo", etc.

The second declension goes like this in the present indicative (the ^ indicates long vowel, and I have separated the verb stem from the endings with -):

vide-ô
vidê-s
vide-t
vidê-mus
vidê-tis
vide-nt

You see here that the final vowel of the stem is sometimes long, sometimes short. This is because:

* With few exceptions, a vowel before another vowel is shortened in Latin. Hence, NOT "vidêo".

* A vowel before a word-final "t", "m", "l" or "r", in words of two or more syllables, is shortened. Hence, NOT "vidêt".

* A vowel is always (with very few exceptions) short before "nt". Hence, NOT "vidênt".

You don't have to learn these rules, but it might be interesting to know the reasons for such irregularities. :wink:

So, to recapitulate, the forms are stressed in this way:

vídeo
vídes
vídet
vidémus
vidétis
vídent

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Postby ego » 2007-07-09, 21:04

Oh, I had already been taught that vowel before vowel is usually short.. shame one me. Thanks Alatie (Alati?)

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Postby dunkelwald » 2007-07-09, 21:12

Alatius wrote:The "e" is indeed short, so it is "stúdeo", "váleo", etc.

The second declension goes like this in the present indicative (the ^ indicates long vowel, and I have separated the verb stem from the endings with -):

vide-ô
vidê-s
vide-t
vidê-mus
vidê-tis
vide-nt

You see here that the final vowel of the stem is sometimes long, sometimes short. This is because:

* With few exceptions, a vowel before another vowel is shortened in Latin. Hence, NOT "vidêo".

* A vowel before a word-final "t", "m", "l" or "r", in words of two or more syllables, is shortened. Hence, NOT "vidêt".

* A vowel is always (with very few exceptions) short before "nt". Hence, NOT "vidênt".

You don't have to learn these rules, but it might be interesting to know the reasons for such irregularities. :wink:

So, to recapitulate, the forms are stressed in this way:

vídeo
vídes
vídet
vidémus
vidétis
vídent


Even if it might not fit here generally. Are there more of these rules? I'm really interested into rules/stuff like that, as we aren't taught things like that a lot. We mainly translate texts in school and interpret things which - in my opinion - isn't very good, but I can't do anything about it.

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Postby Alatius » 2007-07-10, 11:19

dunkelwald wrote:Even if it might not fit here generally. Are there more of these rules? I'm really interested into rules/stuff like that, as we aren't taught things like that a lot. We mainly translate texts in school and interpret things which - in my opinion - isn't very good, but I can't do anything about it.


These are all rules that describe the development of the language, and there are whole books devoted to this topic, filled with similar laws. If you are really interested, see for example:
G. Meiser, "Historische Laut- und Formenlehre der lateinischen Sprache", 2002
M. Leumann, "Lateinische Laut- and Formenlehre", 1977
or, if you are really serious,
F. Sommer, "Handbuch der lateinischen Laut- und Formenlehre. Eine Einführung in das sprachwissenschaftliche Studium des Lateins." 1914. Vol. 1. Einleitung und Lautlehre. Revised by Raimund Pfister. Heidelberg. 1977 (4th ed.).

(I supposed you read German. Otherwise, there is, for example, Kent, R. G. "The Sounds of Latin. A Descriptive and Historical Phonology.", 1932, which seems promising, but which I haven't read.)

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Postby Ioannes » 2007-07-13, 11:08

I can't emphasize the importance of reading texts as soon as possible enough. You should use no more than 3-4 weeks on grasping an overview of the grammar, then immediately turn to texts. I will provide with you easy fables when you come to that stage, if you're interested, before reading De bello Gallico.

I also suggest that you check the following link out:
http://www.textkit.com/latin_grammar.php

Are you using a textbook/workbook through your course?

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Postby ego » 2007-07-14, 10:00

Ioannes wrote:I can't emphasize the importance of reading texts as soon as possible enough. You should use no more than 3-4 weeks on grasping an overview of the grammar, then immediately turn to texts. I will provide with you easy fables when you come to that stage, if you're interested, before reading De bello Gallico.

I also suggest that you check the following link out:
http://www.textkit.com/latin_grammar.php

Are you using a textbook/workbook through your course?


Actually I had no intention to study dry grammar books for more than 10 days, but because of the army (I cannot study every day) I will have to make it about 2-3 weeks. Then I will start reading de bello Gallico. It seems very easy, actually I already understand some sentences.

I will provide with you easy fables when you come to that stage, if you're interested, before reading De bello Gallico.


Hmmm... I would need a tutor to read them together. Besides since I will be examined on one text only and it is so easy, I don't think I need further reading. All I have to do is to memorize all oddities of the specific text, why make it more complicated? 8)

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Postby Babelfish » 2007-07-14, 10:28

Ioannes wrote:I will provide with you easy fables when you come to that stage, if you're interested, before reading De bello Gallico.

I'm interested :bounce: I fear my Latin is getting rusty, and anyway it might be more interesting than De Bello Gallico etc...

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Postby Ioannes » 2007-07-15, 23:10

w egwge, Without seeming like an ass, I would say that is being a bit too ambitious, but do as you feel like, we all learn differently. I'll be here to answer any question you might get :wink:

Babelfish, fables are fun to read!


http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/zepsphaedrus.html

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... 99.02.0118

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Postby ego » 2007-07-16, 11:30

What a use of «egwge», you turned it to vocative. I won't condemn you though, I'll let God do it :( .

Without seeming like an ass, I would say that is being a bit too ambitious, but do as you feel like, we all learn differently


Indeed ass, oops! I mean Luís, oops! I mean Ioannes! :P

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Postby Babelfish » 2007-07-16, 14:51

Ah, excellens! (hoc in Latina uti possum? :P ) Gratias, Ioannes!

... Sed quid est "Interpretatio Latina" in prima copula (???), non intellexi :?

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Postby Ioannes » 2007-07-16, 22:28

ego wrote:What a use of «egwge», you turned it to vocative. I won't condemn you though, I'll let God do it :( .

Without seeming like an ass, I would say that is being a bit too ambitious, but do as you feel like, we all learn differently


Indeed ass, oops! I mean Luís, oops! I mean Ioannes! :P


Says the shit, oops, i mean Luís, ooopps! I mean loser that uses "ego" as nick.
LINGVAE BARBARIORVM STVDEO

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Postby Luís » 2007-07-16, 22:45

O bebé ficou amuado... :P

Ioannes always complained about the way I used to learn Latin: too much grammar, too few texts. I think my thread died out before I could mention it, but I did finish that book I was using (there were only a couple of lessons left anyway). I bought the second volume but never got to use it, though ;)
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Postby Ioannes » 2007-07-17, 0:30

Luís wrote:O bebé ficou amuado... :P

Ioannes always complained about the way I used to learn Latin: too much grammar, too few texts. I think my thread died out before I could mention it, but I did finish that book I was using (there were only a couple of lessons left anyway). I bought the second volume but never got to use it, though ;)


Yes, somewhere between your and Ego's "approach" would be just fine. :idea:
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Postby ego » 2007-07-17, 19:27

Ioannes wrote:
ego wrote:What a use of «egwge», you turned it to vocative. I won't condemn you though, I'll let God do it :( .

Without seeming like an ass, I would say that is being a bit too ambitious, but do as you feel like, we all learn differently


Indeed ass, oops! I mean Luís, oops! I mean Ioannes! :P


Says the shit, oops, i mean Luís, ooopps! I mean loser that uses "ego" as nick.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Postby ego » 2007-07-17, 19:32

Ioannes wrote:
Luís wrote:O bebé ficou amuado... :P

Ioannes always complained about the way I used to learn Latin: too much grammar, too few texts. I think my thread died out before I could mention it, but I did finish that book I was using (there were only a couple of lessons left anyway). I bought the second volume but never got to use it, though ;)


Yes, somewhere between your and Ego's "approach" would be just fine. :idea:


You miss one point here. We three, study Latin for different reasons. You study Latin as a language, just as you would study French or any living language. You want to be able to speak Latin, compose your own speech, I guess your aim is to become fluent. Luis has had his own reasons, perhaps he just wanted to see how his native language's ancestor worked and compare it to Portuguese.
Me, on the other hand, I don't care about being able to speak Latin. I don't study Latin in the same way I would study a living language. Latin is just an exam to me, nothing else. It would be an interesting language if alive, perhaps I'd study it then, but in general dead languages don't attract me except for ancient Greek.
Anyway every person studies in his own way. My friends mock me for using "Teach Yourself ancient Greek" for example, but to me it's a most valuable book, and it serves me better than the classical grammar books I have also tried

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Postby Luís » 2007-07-17, 19:45

ego wrote:Luis has had his own reasons, perhaps he just wanted to see how his native language's ancestor worked and compare it to Portuguese.


You can see right through me... :P

Obviously I didn't study Latin because of the literature. My main interest was to know more about its grammar and vocabulary in order to get a better understanding of my own language and compare it with modern Romance languages and the way they have evolved. Caesar's description of his battles isn't of much interest to me...
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales


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