Indonesian - Xmatixx

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Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby Xmatixx » 2008-06-05, 1:33

Hey everybody, I decided back in February that I would start learning Indonesian, but because of school I didn't have much time. However, now that I'm done with school I picked it up again, and will be using this thread to ask any questions that I may have.

I'm mainly using the rosetta stone and two books for my studying. The books are Teach Youself Indonesian by Christopher Byrnes, and Colloquial Indonesian by Sutanto Atmosumarto (Although I haven't gone past lesson 3 and lesson 1 respectively, I find that the latter is much better, so I might end up concentrating primarily on this one).

Anyway, as of right now I have finished lesson 1 of Colloquial Indonesian and I have a few questions.

1. Nona vs. Nyonya - Nona doesn't appear in a vocabulary box in the book as nyonya does so I'm not 100% sure that my interpretation is correct. According to the book, nyonya means Mrs. and nona appears translated in a sentence as Miss. Is this right, or is nona just a simplified version of nyonya?

2. -mu - One of the sample dialogues that appears reads:

C: Selamat malam, Budi.
D: Apa kabar?
C: Kabar baik. Bagaimana isterimu?
D: Dia sehat. Terima kasih.


From context I understand that isterimu means your wife however this is not specified in the lesson nor in any other place in the book that I could easily find. Does this means that when -mu is added to a noun it is referring to the noun being a possession of the person one is talking to?

3. I am given these instructions in an excercise:

How would you introduce these people to your host at a party?

(f) John Smith, an English language teacher and Jane, his wife; they are American.


My answer is: Ini John Smith, guru bahasa Indonesia, dan Jane, isteri dia. Mereka orang Amerika Serikat.
However, the book omits the comma between Indonesia and dan in its answer. In English I would always include that comma... Is this a misprint or is that comma optional in Indonesian?

4. Tourist - One of my books uses pelancong for tourist, and the other uses wisatawan. Is one more common than the other, or are there any differences (however suttle) between the two?

5. Saudara, Bapak, Tuan - Are they interchangable in any context?

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Re: Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby Desmond » 2008-06-07, 16:29

Hi,

Please allow me.

Xmatixx wrote:1. According to the book, nyonya means Mrs. and nona appears translated in a sentence as Miss. Is this right, or is nona just a simplified version of nyonya?


Nona is used to refer to a young-unmarried woman, so in this case, it's a Miss. Nowadays, nona is rarely used anymore in addressing a young woman.

Xmatixx wrote:2. From context I understand that isterimu means your wife however this is not specified in the lesson nor in any other place in the book that I could easily find. Does this means that when -mu is added to a noun it is referring to the noun being a possession of the person one is talking to?


Yes. The -mu here is an abbreviated form of kamu.

- Bagaimana istrimu? = Bagaimana istri kamu?
How is your wife?

- Ini bukumu = Ini buku kamu
It's your book

Xmatixx wrote:3. My answer is: Ini John Smith, guru bahasa Indonesia, dan Jane, isteri dia. Mereka orang Amerika Serikat.
However, the book omits the comma between Indonesia and dan in its answer. In English I would always include that comma... Is this a misprint or is that comma optional in Indonesian?


I would say that your version is a better one. There should be a comma there between Indonesia and dan.

Xmatixx wrote:4. Tourist - One of my books uses pelancong for tourist, and the other uses wisatawan. Is one more common than the other, or are there any differences (however suttle) between the two?


In formal translation, wisatawan is much more commonly used than pelancong. The latter sounds outdated nowadays. However, you wouldn't hear poeple use neither wisatawan nor pelancong in daily conversation. Turis, a direct translation from tourist is much preferred.

Xmatixx wrote:5. Saudara, Bapak, Tuan - Are they interchangable in any context?


No, they're not interchangable. Saudara is less polite than bapak. Tuan is an old-fashioned style of calling an employer, a master.

Please post follow up should you have further questions.

Greetings from Jakarta!

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Postby Xmatixx » 2008-06-23, 9:10

Ok, I have two new questions.

1. What is the difference between ada and adalah?

2. The use of itu in certain cases.

Ex: I understand why one should say tidak ada orang di kamar itu, since it means "there is nobody in that room", but sometimes I have seen the same construction (itu directly following the subject of the sentence) translated as "there is nobody in the room" (not that exact sentence, but I can't find an actual example at the moment).

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Postby Xmatixx » 2008-06-23, 9:20

Found one:

[En] How many people are there in the office?

[In] Berapa orang ada di kantor itu?

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Postby Desmond » 2008-06-28, 20:48

Xmatixx wrote:
1. What is the difference between ada and adalah?


Ada in some cases is similar with the "there is/there are" in English.

Ex:
Ada 2 orang pria di kamar itu.
There are 2 men in that room.

while in other cases it simply points the existance of something.

Ex:
Saya tidak ada uang sama sekali.
I don't have any money at all.

Tidak ada orang yang suka dia.
Nobody likes him.

-----

To put it simple, adalah is similar with the IS, AM, ARE (Sorry, I don't know how to explain it better but I hope you can draw conclusion from the examples)

Itu adalah contoh yang sangat buruk.
That is a very bad example.

Bill Gates adalah orang paling kaya di dunia.
Bill Gates is the richest man in the world.

Singa adalah raja hutan.
Lion is the king of the jungle.


Xmatixx wrote:2. The use of itu in certain cases.

Ex: I understand why one should say tidak ada orang di kamar itu, since it means "there is nobody in that room", but sometimes I have seen the same construction (itu directly following the subject of the sentence) translated as "there is nobody in the room":

[En] How many people are there in the office?
[In] Berapa orang ada di kantor itu?.


Itu will always be translated to "that". Your example should have been translated without "itu":

Ada berapa orang di kantor?

Look:

Saya bekerja di kantor itu.
I work in that office (I don't work in this office or other office)

Saya bekerja di kantor.
I work in the office (I don't work in the factory).

Dia sedang mencoba menjual mobil itu.
He is trying to sell that car (he is not trying to sell other car).

Without itu, the sentence would mean he is trying to sell the car or trying to sell cars (he is a car salesman).

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Postby Xmatixx » 2008-06-28, 22:18

thanks, all clear now :P

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Re: Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby Xmatixx » 2008-08-16, 17:21

So... i've been inactive for a while, but now im back with some more questions.

1. "Sekola kok dekat stasiun! Apa tidak terlalu ramai?" - I don't understand the use of kok in this sentence :/

2. Jadi kamu (pergi) ke sekolah? - What is jadi?

3. Dia tidak berani naik bis umum karena lalu lintas ramai sekali. - Isn't berani brave or courageous? I find it a bit exaggerated to say someone is not brave enough to take the public bus because the traffic is very loud :/

4. Dia tinggal di sebuah rumah yang tidak begitu jauh dari pusat kota. - I don't understand the use of begitu in the sentence

Also, there's some things I noticed about the language which I thought were interesting:

1. Turun ke bawah - Are pleonasms like this one common in Indonesian? At least in Chile, saying "bajar para abajo" sounds wrong (the kind of mistake a child or uneducated person would make) however I've found it is quite common in Spain :/
On the other hand, I've never heard it in English... saying "going down to downstairs" just sounds too wrong. The closest thing I can think of is "down below" but it's not quite the same.

2. Makan obat - In all the other languages I've learned you "take" medicine not "eat" it. Are there more languages that use "eat" for taking medicine?

3. Anda duduk di kelas berapa? - I found this an interesting way of asking in which grade one is.

Terima kasih :)

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Re: Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby Desmond » 2008-08-16, 18:44

Xmatixx wrote:1. "Sekola kok dekat stasiun! Apa tidak terlalu ramai?" - I don't understand the use of kok in this sentence :/

It's a commonly used particle in daily conversation. I've written about these particles here: http://www.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=15913

Xmatixx wrote:2. Jadi kamu (pergi) ke sekolah? - What is jadi?

'Jadi' literally means 'to become' - menjadi. It, however, has another meaning:

- It functions like 'so ... or not' or 'so .... right?' in English.
Jadi kita pergi keluar malam ini atau tidak?
So .. are we going out tonight or not?

Kamu jadi mengajar saya Bahasa Inggris, bukan?
So ... you'll teach me English, right?

In your example, it simply means 'so, are you going to school or not?'

Xmatixx wrote:3. Dia tidak berani naik bis umum karena lalu lintas ramai sekali. - Isn't berani brave or courageous? I find it a bit exaggerated to say someone is not brave enough to take the public bus because the traffic is very loud :/

You're right but 'berani' doesn't necessarily have to mean 'brave' or 'courageous' when it's used in negative form, so 'tidak berani' simply means 'to be afraid'.

Dia tidak berani naik bis umum karena lalu lintas ramai sekali.
She's afraid to take the public bus becase the traffic is very loud.

Dia tidak berani bilang sama orang tuanya bahwa dia tidak lulus ujian.
She's afraid to tell her parents that she has failed the exam.

Also, 'berani' can be translated as 'dare'.

- How dare you!
Berani benar kamu!

- I don't dare to say that I am right
Saya tidak berani bilang bahwa saya benar.

Xmatixx wrote:4. Dia tinggal di sebuah rumah yang tidak begitu jauh dari pusat kota. - I don't understand the use of begitu in the sentence

It means 'not too .... ' or 'not so ....'

- Saya tidak begitu tinggi, hanya 170 cm
I'm not so tall, just 170 cm

- Rumah saya tidak begitu jauh dari rumahmu.
My house is not too far from yours.

Xmatixx wrote:Also, there's some things I noticed about the language which I thought were interesting:

1. Turun ke bawah - Are pleonasms like this one common in Indonesian? At least in Chile, saying "bajar para abajo" sounds wrong (the kind of mistake a child or uneducated person would make) however I've found it is quite common in Spain :/
On the other hand, I've never heard it in English... saying "going down to downstairs" just sounds too wrong. The closest thing I can think of is "down below" but it's not quite the same.

Yes, we use pleonasm but not too often. The most commonly heard are:

- Naik ke atas
- Turun ke bawah
- Darah merah

Xmatixx wrote:2. Makan obat - In all the other languages I've learned you "take" medicine not "eat" it. Are there more languages that use "eat" for taking medicine?

Yes, Chinese. We say 吃药 (chi1 yao4) to say 'to take medicine'. Note that you can also say 'minum obat' in Bahasa Indonesia. Both 'makan obat' and 'minum obat' are correct.

Xmatixx wrote:Terima kasih :)

Mi placer :)

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Re: Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby 0stsee » 2008-08-16, 21:27

Desmond, you're gooood!! :praise:

Desmond is right about minum/makan obat.
Ambil obat (literally "take medicine") would be said when you literally are taking some medicine from a place (drugstore, cupboard, etc.)
Ini tandatanganku.

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Re: Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby Xmatixx » 2008-08-16, 22:16

Thanks a lot for the explanations. I have some followup questions/comments.

-If both makan and minum can be used for taking medicine, does it have to do with the physical state of the drug or does it not matter? (like using "minum" for a pill and "makan" for syrup)

-About the pleonasms, would you always say naik ke atas, or is it still common to hear simply naik?

-When I first read the sentence "Jadi kamu (pergi) ke sekolah?" my first impression was that "jadi" was equivalent to the Spanish "acaso", but that isn't exactly like saying "so... or not" or "so... right?". However, if you translate the sentence from Indonesian to Spanish it fits pretty well:
- ¿Acaso vamos a salir esta noche o no?
- ¿Acaso me vas a enseñar inglés o no?


If I had to translate "acaso" to English, I would say it was something like 'Is (whatever the sentence is talking about) happening?' would this be close to the way "jadi" is used?

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Re: Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby Desmond » 2008-08-17, 3:11

Ostsee wrote:Ambil obat (literally "take medicine") would be said when you literally are taking some medicine from a place (drugstore, cupboard, etc.)

Thanks for the addition, Ostsee! :)

Xmatixx wrote:-If both makan and minum can be used for taking medicine, does it have to do with the physical state of the drug or does it not matter? (like using "minum" for a pill and "makan" for syrup)

No, it doesn't have to do with the physical state of the drug. You can hand someone a pill and tell him to 'makan obat' or hand her a spoon full of syrup and tell her to 'minum'.

Note: when a medicine is not taken orally but instead applied externally, we use 'pakai'.

Xmatixx wrote:-About the pleonasms, would you always say naik ke atas, or is it still common to hear simply naik?

It's common, very common, to simply say 'naik'.

Xmatixx wrote:-When I first read the sentence "Jadi kamu (pergi) ke sekolah?" my first impression was that "jadi" was equivalent to the Spanish "acaso", but that isn't exactly like saying "so... or not" or "so... right?". However, if you translate the sentence from Indonesian to Spanish it fits pretty well:
- ¿Acaso vamos a salir esta noche o no?
- ¿Acaso me vas a enseñar inglés o no?

If I had to translate "acaso" to English, I would say it was something like 'Is (whatever the sentence is talking about) happening?' would this be close to the way "jadi" is used?

First of all, let's make it clear that word order is very important here, because

Jadi kita pergi malam ini atau tidak? is not the same with Kita jadi pergi malam ini atau tidak?

The first one means "So ... are we going out tonight or not?" while the second means "Is our plan to go out tonight still valid or not, is it still going to happen or not?)

Lastima que mi español aun no es bastante bueno para decir si 'acaso' realmente significa como 'jadi'. Nevertheless, I do think like you that there is no exact word in English for 'jadi' and 'acaso'.

Let me give another example where 'jadi' is frequently used and please help me see if 'acaso' can be used there. If 'acaso' fits well there then we can conclude that 'jadi' = 'acaso' :)

Saya tidak jadi ke Beijing
(I planned to go to Beijing but for some reasons, I cancel it.)

Maaf, saya tidak jadi beli barang ini.
(I almost buy that stuff but for some reasons, I cancel buying it.)

Wah ... hujan! Tampaknya kita tidak jadi pergi mancing.
(We planned to go fishing but it seems that we may have to cancel it because it's raining).

Please help me see if we can use 'acaso' here. I'm eager to know how to say that in Spanish as well.

Terima kasih.

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Re: Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby Xmatixx » 2008-08-17, 7:54

Desmond wrote:
Let me give another example where 'jadi' is frequently used and please help me see if 'acaso' can be used there. If 'acaso' fits well there then we can conclude that 'jadi' = 'acaso' :)

Saya tidak jadi ke Beijing
(I planned to go to Beijing but for some reasons, I cancel it.)

Maaf, saya tidak jadi beli barang ini.
(I almost buy that stuff but for some reasons, I cancel buying it.)

Wah ... hujan! Tampaknya kita tidak jadi pergi mancing.
(We planned to go fishing but it seems that we may have to cancel it because it's raining).

Please help me see if we can use 'acaso' here. I'm eager to know how to say that in Spanish as well.

Terima kasih.


-Planeaba ir a Beijing, pero por alguna razón lo cancelé.
-Casi compré esa cosa, pero por alguna razón no lo hice. (
you don't really say 'I cancelled buying it', so instead I wrote 'I didnt do it')
-Planeamos ir a pescar, pero al parecer vamos a tener que cancelarlo por que está lloviendo.

If I translate from English, I believe "jadi" would be translated as "por alguna razón" and "al parecer" which isn't the same as "acaso". "Acaso" is only used when asking questions and when saying something like "if this is the case" or "just in case" ("si acaso" o "por si acaso") and "por alguna razón" is used to explain oneself. Actually, now that I think about it the best way to translate "acaso" into English would be "Is it the case?".

- ¿Acaso no te sientes seguro en este auto? - By any chance do you not feel safe in this car?
- Por alguna razón/por algún motivo no me siento seguro en este auto. - For some reason I don't feel safe in this car.

Looking back at the sentences you wrote, if I try to translate them from BI to Spanish I would write them differently.

-Ya no voy a ir a Beijing. - I am not going to Beijing anymore.
-Perdón, pero ya no lo compré - Sorry, but I didn't buy it. (Implying that I could have bought it but I didn't, and what's done is done. Kind of like 'Sorry, but I already didn't buy it').
-¡Lluvia! Parece que ya no vamos a ir a pescar. - Rain! It seems we're not going fishing anymore.

If this accurately describes what the sentences you wrote are trying to say, then "acaso" would be equivalent to "jadi" when asking a question but not when making a statement. However, although you don't actually say it, in the last translations I made, one understands, for example, that you were going to Beijing but that's not the case any more, which is pretty much the equivalent to "acaso" in that context ("Is it the case?" and "It isn't the case anymore").

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Re: Indonesian - Xmatixx

Postby Desmond » 2008-08-17, 9:45

Xmatixx wrote:..... then "acaso" would be equivalent to "jadi" when asking a question but not when making a statement.

That's it! I believe that's the answer. Glad we can finally come to a conclusion.

P.S: Today it's the independence day of Indonesia. I'm going out to now to watch panjat pinang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TMOGMKpA98 :lol:

¡Que tengas un buen fin de semana!


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