Bahasa Melayu - Psi-Lord

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Bahasa Melayu - Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-16, 19:00

After discussing Malay-Indonesian topics with 0stsee in the Portuguese forum, I thought we’d gone off topic enough there to make it fair for me to start a thread here, as I feel like studying at least some basics on my own now. Between the two languages/dialects/variants, I decided to focus more on Malay, so I picked this forum; however, I believe that a lot we happen to discuss here will reflect in Indonesian as well anyway. :)

Our original discussion in the Portuguese forum took place at http://home.unilang.org/main/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15711.

-----

0stsee wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:[…] I mean, some concepts are really getting mixed up in my mind because of differences in sources… I read somewhere that transitive verbs have the prefix me- (e.g. Saya memakan tiga biji epal), but then I see transitive verbs used with no prefix at all (e.g. Saya makan tiga biji epal), and I can only conclude I’m missing some serious point. :P

By the way, I made these two examples up myself, as I couldn’t find a sentence that was written in both ways anywhere, so excuse me if they make no sense, hehe.

I think memakan is not even universally accepted in the written language. I see no difference between the two sentences you wrote, although I have to ask myself what epal is supposed to mean. Do you mean apel?
Btw, I almost never write memakan, even in formal writing.

First, about epal / apel. The word I wanted was indeed ‘apple’. In the Indonesian dictionary I was using (IndoDic.com), I found it as apel; however, in the Malay dictionary I was also using (Karyanet Kamus Inggeris-Melayu Dewan), I found it as epal. I confirmed in other dictionaries and that seems to be the same, so I assumed it was a difference between Indonesian and Malay; since I’m focusing on the latter, I chose epal instead of apel.

Incidentally, when I looked apel up in the Karyanet Kamus Dewan, it defined it as ‘(apél) IB minta banding; hapil.’.

Then, back to the thing with (me)makan, it seems I even picked a ‘problematic’ example, because the Karyanet Kamus Inggeris-Melayu Dewan gives ‘to eat’ as (me)makan in the transitive sense (in other words, it seems to imply the me- prefix is somehow optional). It gives two usage examples:

Memakan semangkuk nasi.
Dia tidak makan daging kambing.

One with me- and the other without it. Oh, well, I guess I’ll eventually get the hang of it. I think the trick at first is not to worry too much about affixes and just learn words that use them as new vocabulary, and then, in a later stage, start paying attention to patterns and learn how to build new words on my own.

0stsee wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:
0stsee wrote:As for the penjodoh bilangan, I guess the different ways to translate a(n) or um(a)? If that's what you mean, you can most of the times replace it with satu. :wink:

I meant words such as biji for fruit, egor for animals, bilah for knives, etc. Is that what you thought I had in mind?

For fruits you can choose between buah and biji, which literally mean "fruit" and "seed"

Ah, okay. I thought that, despite its literal meaning, buah was used only for larger objects that didn’t fit in a specific group, such as dua buah kereta, enam buah komputer, dua belas buah bandar, etc.

0stsee wrote:For animals it's ekor (lit. means "tail"). :wink:

Oops. :oops:

0stsee wrote:I personally hardly ever used bilah for knives.
If I ever use penjodoh bilangan for pisau (knive), I'd just say biji. :P

That’s another thing I guess only exposure to the language will teach me. It may be like in Japanese, where they have measure words for basically anything, as specific as it may be, but native Japanese speakers themselves aren’t acquainted with the more exotic, less used ones, and so using them will sound too bookish, too formal or even too snobbish, and picking a more general one will be the way to go.
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Indonesian Psi-Lord

Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-17, 0:41

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Last edited by 0stsee on 2007-11-19, 12:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indonesian Psi-Lord

Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-17, 1:09

0stsee wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:Ah, okay. I thought that, despite its literal meaning, buah was used only for larger objects that didn’t fit in a specific group, such as dua buah kereta, enam buah komputer, dua belas buah bandar, etc.

I hardly ever say
dua buah kerèta
enam buah komputer
dua belas buah bandar

either.

I'd rather say
dua kerèta
enam komputer
dua belas bandar
.

Oh, then such measure words aren’t strictly required, as in Japanese and Chinese? I thought they were. Or is there a catch to when to use qualifiers and when not to?

0stsee wrote:Though bandar seems weird here.
What do you mean with bandar?

‘Town’. The Malay dictionary gave me both bandar and pekan for ‘town’, and both kota and bandar for ‘city’. Interestingly, I‘ve just checked and the Indonesian dictionary does give me kota as ‘city’, ‘town’, ‘municipality’, but bandar as ‘port’, ‘harbour’, ‘channel’, and pekan as ‘fair’, ‘market’. Malaysia-Indonesia distinctions again?
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bandar

Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-17, 1:28

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-19, 17:37

Menjumpai thread baru yang bernama saya di forum bahasa Indonesia sudah mengejutkan bagi saya. :) Saya belum boleh ingat menulisnya. :lol:

Baiklah, barangkali ayat-ayat ini tidak masuk akal, jadi saya berhenti menulis post ini di sini. :oops:
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Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-19, 20:04

Marcel, you should stop learning Malay or Indonesian. They are useless languages. Too simple for the sophisticated Unilangers.

Although I have to admit that your Malay is quite good.
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Re: Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby Luís » 2007-11-19, 23:55

0stsee wrote:Marcel, you should stop learning Malay or Indonesian. They are useless languages. Too simple for the sophisticated Unilangers.


:shock:
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Re: Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby loqu » 2007-11-20, 0:12

0stsee wrote:Marcel, you should stop learning Malay or Indonesian. They are useless languages. Too simple for the sophisticated Unilangers.

Although I have to admit that your Malay is quite good.


Hey MarK, what's going on with you lately and your discouraging of people trying to learn languages? First on the Catalan subforum and now here :shock:

Are you OK ?
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My reason

Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-20, 0:31

Hey guys!

Seeing the Malaysian vs. Indonesian thing happening with my own mother tongue made me realize how dividing languages can be.

If we could just agree upon less languages, we could be much more united, no?

I just thought separating Indonesian and Malaysian is as ridiculous as separating Catalan and Valencian, but that's the reality, and I'm getting tired of this. In these contexts, English (in SE Asia) and Spanish (in Spanish Levante) would be more neutral.

And I'm not trying to discourage people from learning languages. :)
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Re: Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-20, 0:48

0stsee wrote:Marcel, you should stop learning Malay or Indonesian. They are useless languages. Too simple for the sophisticated Unilangers.

Although I have to admit that your Malay is quite good.

Saya menjadi keliru. :? Being totally unbiased, I can’t but agree Malay and Indonesian are, for practical purposes, totally useless for me, in the sense that I’ve got no friends of Malaysian/Indonesian descent and I’m not planning to live or even visit Malaysia and Indonesia. But then, and even using loqu’s link to the other such discussion, Catalan falls in the same category for me, and yet I had lots of fun studying it back in 2003 or 2004, even if I was limited to practicing it with only one person (pa integral) and online.

I personally don’t agree with the idea of languages being ‘simple’ and ‘sophisticated’ either. Or rather, with the objectiveness of such idea (because sure, it can be subjective, depending on how a person looks at language, but that’s more a matter of attitude than of language features – or the lack thereof). I’ve never thought of learning a Polynesian language, for instance, but that’s only because they don’t appeal to me; if they did, I’d definitely try my best to, even if just some basics to feed my curiosity (and that wouldn’t mean I wouldn’t be serious about it).

It’s true that, as soon as I stepped onto Malay ‘territory’, I realised some things might be more complicated than I’d expected, and I don’t mean grammatically. I just had the impression that I’d be dealing with a language the standard form of which lies on a more abstract, theoretical level than that of others, because it soon become clear that I might be learning features native speakers just drop, vocabulary that native speakers wouldn’t use in favour of code switching, etc. But then, the situation wasn’t so completely different from what I felt with Swedish (in which you may remember the everyday non-bookish pronunciation just confused the heck out of me). Alas, it isn’t even so different from what people may feel with Portuguese, with native speakers arguing from both sides of the Atlantic, and Standard and Vernacular Brazilian Portuguese being sometimes so totally different from each other.

And since I mentioned Swedish, I guess one of the reasons it took me such a long time to approach a Scandinavian language was exactly being always told that they’d be a waste of time, since they’re spoken by relatively few people when compared to some other major languages and that I could just use English when talking to native speakers anyway. I was probably contaminated by this ‘Why bother?’, but I’m glad I didn’t pay attention to it later and gave the languages a try.

In short, I guess what I wanted to say is that my reason for studying Malay stems just from the pleasure I thought I might have with it. :) Either it might become a language I’d put aside as soon as my ‘curiosity’ was fulfilled (as it happened with many others in the past, such as Thai, Vietnamese, Khmer, and Burmese, just to list Asian examples) or one I’d be totally involved with, even if I ran out of time and/or sources (such as Greek, Persian, Japanese and Chinese).

Oh, and sure, I hope your comments have been prompted by anything I may’ve said/implied; if so, I’m truly sorry, because I’m sure I didn’t mean whatever it was. :oops: Saya minta maaf.
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Re: Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-20, 0:59

Psi-Lord wrote:Oh, and sure, I hope your comments have been prompted by anything I may’ve said/implied; if so, I’m truly sorry, because I’m sure I didn’t mean whatever it was. :oops: Saya minta maaf.


No! Don't get me wrong!! :shock:

Kamu di sini betulan keliru!

This has nothing to do with anything you said!
In fact, I'm pretty impressed by your Malaysian, which look just as Indonesian to me.
But then perhaps it's because Malaysian is too easy, anyway. So why bother?
Yet if you still want to learn it, I hope you be successfull. Unfortunately I cannot help you in this forum due to this stupid separation between Malaysian and Indonesian. :roll:
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Re: Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-20, 3:27

0stsee wrote:Yet if you still want to learn it, I hope you be successfull. Unfortunately I cannot help you in this forum due to this stupid separation between Malaysian and Indonesian. :roll:

Sebenarnyalah bahawa barangkali saya harus mempelajari bahasa Indonesia, kerana saya percaya mungkin lebih mudah bagi saya menjumpai penutur asli bahasa Indonesia daripada penutur asli bahasa Melayu. Walau bagaimanapun saya sudah mengumpulkan lebih banyak bahan tentang bahasa Melayu. Saya sudah fikir saya boleh menggunakan bahan-bahan tentang kedua-dua bahasa namun begitu, tetapi sekarang saya tertanya-tanya tentang sama ada adalah bijak. :(

And then, I must say that, even if my focus is on Malay, it’s still always a pleasure to read what you write about Indonesian, so, on what concerns me, feel free to keep writing as many comments as you please yourself to. :)

P.S.: Ya Tuhan, about half an hour to compose the first paragraph! Bold move, much bolder than I’ve ever dared be with any other language before, since that increases the risks of public embarrassment, hehe. :oops:
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Re: Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-20, 14:56

Psi-Lord wrote:
0stsee wrote:Yet if you still want to learn it, I hope you be successfull. Unfortunately I cannot help you in this forum due to this stupid separation between Malaysian and Indonesian. :roll:

[s]Sebenarnyalah bahawa[/s] Barangkali saya sebenarnya harus mempelajari bahasa Indonesia, kerana [s]saya percaya[/s] mungkin lebih mudah bagi saya menjumpai penutur asli bahasa Indonesia daripada penutur asli bahasa Melayu. [s]Walau[/s] Bagaimanapun saya sudah mengumpulkan lebih banyak bahan tentang bahasa Melayu. Saya sudah fikir saya boleh menggunakan bahan-bahan tentang kedua-dua bahasa [s]namun begitu[/s], tetapi sekarang saya bertanya-tanya tentang sama ada adalah bijak. :(

And then, I must say that, even if my focus is on Malay, it’s still always a pleasure to read what you write about Indonesian, so, on what concerns me, feel free to keep writing as many comments as you please yourself to. :)

P.S.: Ya Tuhan, about half an hour to compose the first paragraph! Bold move, much bolder than I’ve ever dared be with any other language before, since that increases the risks of public embarrassment, hehe. :oops:

I didn't want to post in Malaysian forum, but I can't hold myself. :roll:

Marcel, what do you want to say with the last sentence?
"tentang sama ada adalah bijak"?
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Re: Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-20, 15:05

0stsee wrote:I didn't want to post in Malaysian forum, but I can't hold myself. :roll:

Isn’t temptation lovely? :lol: But I guess I understand you somehow… A long, long time ago I promised myself I’d stop posting at the Portuguese forum because of the constant arguments and lack of objectiveness, but alas, I couldn’t resist for long. :oops:

0stsee wrote:Marcel, what do you want to say with the last sentence?
"tentang sama ada adalah bijak"?

By tetapi sekarang saya bertanya-tanya tentang sama ada adalah bijak I meant something along the lines of ‘but now I wonder if that’s prudent’. I knew it’d come out in a mess, though, because I couldn’t put the bits together, but I threw it it nevertheless just to see how things would go.
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Re: Stop learning Indonesian!!

Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-20, 15:08

Psi-Lord wrote:
0stsee wrote:Marcel, what do you want to say with the last sentence?
"tentang sama ada adalah bijak"?

By tetapi sekarang saya bertanya-tanya tentang sama ada adalah bijak I meant something along the lines of ‘but now I wonder if that’s prudent’. I knew it’d come out in a mess, though, because I couldn’t put the bits together, but I threw it it nevertheless just to see how things would go.

Then you'd just say:
Tapi sekarang saya bertanya-tanya apa itu bijak. :wink:
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-20, 15:13

Yeah, Marcel, go and overcomplicate things that are already complicated. :roll: :oops: :lol:

Terima kasih, MarK. :)
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De nada

Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-20, 23:28

Psi-Lord wrote:Yeah, Marcel, go and overcomplicate things that are already complicated. :roll: :oops: :lol:

Terima kasih, MarK. :)


Sama-sama!

In spoken Indonesian it is quite usual to shorten "terima kasih" to just makasih. :)
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-26, 10:32

Saya hendak menulis lebih lagi dalam Bahasa Melayu, tetapi agak sukar untuk mengemukakan sesuatu yang menarik. Oleh kerana itu, saya menulis karangan yang keanak-anakan supaya berlatih, ya? :)

Saya mengalami migrain semalam. Waktu malam beberapa orang rakan sudah singgah, tetapi sakit begitu parah sehingga saya terpaksa masuk tidur awal. Ubat yang saya memakan tidak membawa kesan, oleh itu saya terjaga pada tengah malam tiga suku dan tidak dapat tidur semula. :( Saya tidak baik, tetapi saya tidak mahu menjagakan isteri saya, sebab itu saya sudah datang ke bilik membaca dengan kucing kami dan menghabiskan masa selebihnya malam di sini. Saya suka merenung bintang-bintang dan langit itu tindah, jadi mengaguminya sehingga subuh, ketika kabus pagi mengaburkan bulan dan Orion (dan sabuknya yang berkilau-kilau). :)
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Postby 0stsee » 2007-11-26, 12:26

Psi-Lord wrote:Saya hendak menulis lebih lagi dalam Bahasa Melayu, tetapi agak sukar untuk mengemukakan sesuatu yang menarik. Oleh kerana itu, saya menulis karangan yang keanak-anakan supaya berlatih, ya? :)

Saya mengalami migrain semalam. Waktu malam beberapa orang rakan sudah singgah, tetapi sakit begitu parah sehingga saya terpaksa masuk tidur awal. Ubat yang saya memakan tidak membawa kesan, oleh itu saya terjaga pada tengah malam tiga suku dan tidak dapat tidur semula. :( Saya tidak baik, tetapi saya tidak mahu menjagakan isteri saya, sebab itu saya sudah datang ke bilik membaca dengan kucing kami dan menghabiskan masa selebihnya malam di sini. Saya suka merenung bintang-bintang dan langit itu tindah, jadi mengaguminya sehingga subuh, ketika kabus pagi mengaburkan bulan dan Orion (dan sabuknya yang berkilau-kilau). :)


Hej Marcel José!

For "keanak-anakan" I'd say kekanak-kanakan or simply kekanakan


"Waktu malam beberapa orang rakan sudah singgah, tetapi sakit begitu parah sehingga saya terpaksa masuk tidur awal."

Do you mean:
Last night some friends of mine came over, but I was so sick that I had to go to bed early. :?:


"Ubat yang saya memakan tidak membawa kesan, oleh itu saya terjaga pada tengah malam tiga suku dan tidak dapat tidur semula."

=The medicine I took didn't work, which is why I woke up in the middle of the night three ??? and couldn't get to sleep again. :?:


"Saya tidak baik, tetapi saya tidak mahu menjagakan isteri saya, sebab itu saya sudah datang ke bilik membaca dengan kucing kami dan menghabiskan masa selebihnya malam di sini."

=I'm not well, but I didn't want to wake up my wife, which is why I went to the reading room with our cat and spent the rest of the night there. :?:


The last sentence is beautifully written. :)
But I think you meant kabut instead of kabus. :wink:



Salam,


MarK
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-11-26, 13:16

0stsee wrote:For "keanak-anakan" I'd say kekanak-kanakan or simply kekanakan

At least the online dictionaries I have access to never fail. :D As you probably know, I don’t really try to play with affixes on my own, so I look up words on their own in a Malay(sian) dictionary and then throw them into an Indonesian dictionary that actually gives me the formation of the word. For instance, let’s say I want to use the word ‘doubtful’. I look it up in the Kamus Inggeris-Melayu Dewan, find the meaning that is close(r) to what I have in mind and pick it; in this case, say, mencurigakan. I then take mencurigakan, throw it into the IndoDic E-Kamus, and it gives me:

mencurigakan (v.) = men + curiga + kan = to become suspicious; arouse suspicions; make suspicious


From that I learn the word curiga and can even start building patterns in my head. But why am I writing all this? Because keanak-anakan was one of the situations when the dictionaries disagreed, and I couldn’t tell if it was just a matter of different options or if Malaysians would use one word while Indonesians would use another. The KIMD gives both keanak-anakan and kebudak-budakan for ‘childish’, but neither appears in the IDEK, which gives instead kekanak-kanakan (surprise!), bersifat anak, and seperti anak.

In these situations, I try to throw the Indonesian words in the Kamus Dewan dictionary, since it may actually give me a Malay-Malay definition that includes them after all. I forgot to do that this time, but, if I had, I’d have found out the KD defines kekanak-kanakan as:

1. spt kanak-kanak (tingkah laku, fikiran, dll), keanak-anakan: berkelakuan ~; ketawa ~; 2. Id terbantut (terhenti) pertumbuhan bahagian tubuh atau kecerdasan.


Okay, I swear I did have a point when I started this whole reasoning, but I seem to have lost myself. :oops:

0stsee wrote:"Waktu malam beberapa orang rakan sudah singgah, tetapi sakit begitu parah sehingga saya terpaksa masuk tidur awal."

Do you mean:
Last night some friends of mine came over, but I was so sick that I had to go to bed early. :?:

Ya, betul.

0stsee wrote:"Ubat yang saya memakan tidak membawa kesan, […]."

=The medicine I took didn't work, […] :?:

Ya, betul. I was aiming at something more complex, such as ‘the medicine I had produced no effect’, but I’d probably mess the sentence and tried to simplify it.

0stsee wrote:"[…] oleh itu saya terjaga pada tengah malam tiga suku dan tidak dapat tidur semula."

[…] which is why I woke up in the middle of the night three ??? and couldn't get to sleep again. :?:

The bit that got lost in the middle was my attempt at ‘I woke up at a quarter to one (= at midnight and three quarters)’. I remembered having learnt somewhere that I could say the time using three quarters, but I had no idea if it worked with midday and midnight as well. :oops: I’m usually awful at telling the time in other languages.


0stsee wrote:"Saya tidak baik, tetapi saya tidak mahu menjagakan isteri saya, sebab itu saya sudah datang ke bilik membaca dengan kucing kami dan menghabiskan masa selebihnya malam di sini."

=I'm not well, but I didn't want to wake up my wife, which is why I went to the reading room with our cat and spent the rest of the night there. :?:

Ya, betul. :) An interesting point, though… I’m still a bit unsure about when to indicate tenses more explicitly and when to leave it up to the context. When I wrote this sentence, I had ‘I wasn’t well’ instead of ‘I’m not well’ in mind, but I thought the context would suffice to make that clear (since by the time I was writing I already felt better). Should I have indicated that somehow?

Oh, and if we’re to take the dictionaries I use literally, it seems that what is called a bilik membaca in Malaysia could be a kamar belajar in Indonesia; however, when I look kamar belajar itself, I see it can apparently be both a study (which is what I had in mind) and a school classroom. Is that so?

0stsee wrote:The last sentence is beautifully written. :)

:oops: :oops: :oops:

0stsee wrote:But I think you meant kabut instead of kabus. :wink:

There we go again. :lol: When I looked it up, I found kabur, kabus and kabut. :shock: I realised that the dictionaries defined kabut as kabus tebal, but I had no idea how tebal the kabus had to be to become kabut, so I basically picked it randomly. :lol: How would you distinguish them three?
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