NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Cesare M. » 2016-01-29, 2:19

Aleco wrote:Faktisk er gjøre riktig i denne sammenhengen :) En annen ting jeg imidlertid ikke liker med norsken på Duolingo er at de bruker ubestemt artikkel i alle sammenhenger. De sier at det er riktig å si jeg er en snekker, men morsmålstalere sløyfer vanligvis artikkelen når det står et definerende susbtantiv (f.eks. yrke eller kjønn) til være eller bli (unntak: når det kommer inn et adjektiv) eller når et substantiv står som objektsform (f.eks. kjøre bil eller spise banan). Dette er selvfølgelig grovregler.

Feilgrepet på Duolingo kommer nok enten av at folk trur at den ubestemte artikkelen sløyfes på grunn av latskap når den egentlig aldri har vært der, eller av at folk oversetter direkte fra engelsk.

jeg er mann // jeg er en stor mann
han vil bli snekker // han vil bli en dyktig snekker

du har hund // du har [en] snill hund
de fikk blomst // de fikk [en] rød blomst


I de to siste eksemplene vil nok mange foretrekke å bruke ubestemt artikkel både med og uten adjektivet. Jeg skal innrømme at jeg ikke er helt sikker på hva som anses som riktig grammatikk i dette tilfellet.


Det samme med svensk, det går ikke an å si "Jag är en lärare" uten "Jag är lärare".

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2016-01-29, 5:58

Aleco wrote:Faktisk er gjøre riktig i denne sammenhengen :) En annen ting jeg imidlertid ikke liker med norsken på Duolingo er at de bruker ubestemt artikkel i alle sammenhenger. De sier at det er riktig å si jeg er en snekker, men morsmålstalere sløyfer vanligvis artikkelen når det står et definerende susbtantiv (f.eks. yrke eller kjønn) til være eller bli (unntak: når det kommer inn et adjektiv) eller når et substantiv står som objektsform (f.eks. kjøre bil eller spise banan). Dette er selvfølgelig grovregler.

Feilgrepet på Duolingo kommer nok enten av at folk trur at den ubestemte artikkelen sløyfes på grunn av latskap når den egentlig aldri har vært der, eller av at folk oversetter direkte fra engelsk.

jeg er mann // jeg er en stor mann
han vil bli snekker // han vil bli en dyktig snekker

du har hund // du har [en] snill hund
de fikk blomst // de fikk [en] rød blomst


I de to siste eksemplene vil nok mange foretrekke å bruke ubestemt artikkel både med og uten adjektivet. Jeg skal innrømme at jeg ikke er helt sikker på hva som anses som riktig grammatikk i dette tilfellet.

Det beror inte på vad man egentligen menar? På svenska betyder "du har hund" och "du har en hund" inte riktigt samma sak, det förstnämnda är om man har husdjur av den arten överhuvudtaget, medan det andra att man har en hund och inte flera. Men ska det in ett adjektiv måste man använda artikel och rätt numerus: "du har en snäll hund" - "du har snälla hundar".

Exempel nummer två fungerar lite sämre med tanke på att det mer allmänna är "de fick blommor", i plural, så fick de bara en måste man nästan säga "de fick en blomma", även om det känns något mer markerat ändå.
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Cesare M. » 2016-01-30, 5:01

Johanna wrote:Det beror inte på vad man egentligen menar? På svenska betyder "du har hund" och "du har en hund" inte riktigt samma sak, det förstnämnda är om man har husdjur av den arten överhuvudtaget, medan det andra att man har en hund och inte flera. Men ska det in ett adjektiv måste man använda artikel och rätt numerus: "du har en snäll hund" - "du har snälla hundar".

Exempel nummer två fungerar lite sämre med tanke på att det mer allmänna är "de fick blommor", i plural, så fick de bara en måste man nästan säga "de fick en blomma", även om det känns något mer markerat ändå.


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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Diogenes » 2016-02-08, 15:04

Et annet eksempel fra Duolingo: "Det ligger noe i lufta." Høres dette rart ut?
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby keme » 2016-02-11, 8:26

Diogenes wrote:Hva er forskjellen mellom alt og allting i disse to setningene for eksempel?

Jeg kan forklare alt.
Jeg kan forklare allting.

Semantisk er de likeverdige. Jeg ville likevel brukt dem om forskjellige situasjoner.

Jeg kan forklare alt. - brukes om en bestemt sak eller situasjon, for å fortelle at "det er jeg som har hele oversikten her"
Specific knowledge/case resolution

Jeg kan forklare allting - her brukes "allting" for å understreke at det er "virkelig alt", uavhengig av sammenheng. Altså noe i retning av "dersom du lurer på noe, kan jeg hjelpe deg til å finne ut av det."
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Aleco » 2016-02-17, 10:56

Johanna wrote:Det beror inte på vad man egentligen menar? På svenska betyder "du har hund" och "du har en hund" inte riktigt samma sak, det förstnämnda är om man har husdjur av den arten överhuvudtaget, medan det andra att man har en hund och inte flera. Men ska det in ett adjektiv måste man använda artikel och rätt numerus: "du har en snäll hund" - "du har snälla hundar".

Exempel nummer två fungerar lite sämre med tanke på att det mer allmänna är "de fick blommor", i plural, så fick de bara en måste man nästan säga "de fick en blomma", även om det känns något mer markerat ändå.

Det skilles gjerne på "en" og "én", så jeg vil ikke si at den samme forskjellen er å finne i norsk.

Når det er sagt har jeg tenkt litt mer på hvorfor vi kan si "jeg har blå bil" eller "jeg har en blå bil". Dersom fargen er det viktigste i setninga, sløyfes gjerne artikkelen. Dersom du skal fortelle noen at du har kjøpt bil, som tilfeldigvis er blå, så er det bilen som er viktig, og fargen bare tilleggsinformasjon, og da må artikkelen være med.

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby ich » 2016-05-10, 12:51

Hei!
I have been using Duolingo to learn Norwegian and I am a bit confused on the genders of the nouns. There are some nouns like "jente" that they use "ei" as the indefinite article and when it is definite, the word is "jenta." Then there are words like "skilpadde," with which they use "en" as the indefinite article and the word is "skilpadda" when it is definite. I am also using Lang-8. Once, I was writing "dattera mi" for "my daughter," and I was corrected to use "datteren min" because it was more formal. In my dictionary, "datter" and "skilpadde" are presented the same in the dictionary, showing that I can use "-a" or "-en" interchangeably. However, my dictionary shows words like "kro" with both the "-a" ending and the "-en" ending but the "-en" ending is marked as being in bokmål, but yet the "-en" in"datter" and "skilpadde" are not. I am so confused.
My first question is: What is different between "kro" and "skilpadde"?
My second question is: Duolingo only uses the masc. indef. article in front of "skilpadde" and always uses "-a" as the def. marker. It seems, however with "datter" one can choose. "Jeg har ei datter." "Jeg har en datter." Is it possible to say "Jeg ser ei skilpadde" or is that completely wrong? If it is wrong, how will I know the difference in how I can use these words?
My third question is: Are these gender variations due to the various dialects of Norway or is it due to differences between nynorsk and bokmål?

I hope this made any sense. Just writing out the questions were difficult due to my confusion on the subject. Thanks for your response in advance.

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2016-05-11, 6:49

Norwegian is pretty unique in that it gives a lot of leeway when it comes to its written standards, not only that it has two of them to choose from, but also that you can choose between several grammatical forms depending on what style you're going with, as long as you do so consistently and not randomly. And yes, it has to do with the dialectal variation, at least in Nynorsk, in Bokmål it's more about writing in a more conservative Danish-like manner, or a more radical one that is a little closer to how most Norwegians speak.

But like I said, being consistent is the key and in Bokmål you either use two or three genders, you don't mix and match, although if you use two there are a select few words that still are feminine for most speakers for some reason, jente being one of those. Still, to use the masculine indefinite article with the feminine definite one is always wrong from what I've been told, so that it tells you to say and write en skilpadde - skilpadda sounds really weird.

Just as weird is that they mark using the feminine version of a noun as plain wrong, just because something isn't as formal or as conservative doesn't mean it's wrong, and in this case it's ridiculous even since there are extremely few contexts in which using three genders is seen as too informal; usually when you're not allowed to do so it's because you're a journalist for example and the newspaper or magazine you work for wants to keep the style of its texts uniform, but that goes the other way too and in some of them you only see a more radical form of Bokmål.

There's a really good monolingual online dictionary for both Bokmål and Nynorsk, it includes conjugations and it tells you what gender(s) a noun is or can be :) http://nob-ordbok.uio.no/perl/ordbok.cgi

Edit: To see the conjugations, click on the link just after the word itself, for skilpadde it's m1, f1, and they will pop up. And as you've probably understood from the rest of my post, if you're going with two genders over-all you use the m form, and if you're going with three you use the f one :)
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby ich » 2016-05-11, 10:54

Thanks for the reply and also for the great link. :) I just have follow-up question.
Johanna wrote: And yes, it has to do with the dialectal variation, at least in Nynorsk, in Bokmål it's more about writing in a more conservative Danish-like manner, or a more radical one that is a little closer to how most Norwegians speak.

Which version of bokmål would be closer to how most Norwegians speak? Do most use just the masculine forms or the feminine forms, when they have a choice?

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2016-05-11, 11:17

ich wrote:Thanks for the reply and also for the great link. :) I just have follow-up question.
Johanna wrote: And yes, it has to do with the dialectal variation, at least in Nynorsk, in Bokmål it's more about writing in a more conservative Danish-like manner, or a more radical one that is a little closer to how most Norwegians speak.

Which version of bokmål would be closer to how most Norwegians speak? Do most use just the masculine forms or the feminine forms, when they have a choice?

Radical is the most Norwegian form, and it's got three genders, so if you're going with that you use the feminine for all nouns that have that option.

ei jente - jenta - jenter - jentene
ei datter - dattera - døtre/døtrer - døtrene
ei skilpadde - skilpadda - skilpadder - skilpaddene
ei leilighet - leiligheta - leiligheter - leilighetene
ei bok - boka - bøker - bøkene
ei seng - senga - senger - sengene


etc.
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby ich » 2016-05-11, 22:43

Thanks, I think I understand now. :)

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2016-05-11, 23:03

ich wrote:Thanks, I think I understand now. :)

Great :)
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby AnnebrittIsaksen » 2016-05-19, 12:13

Thanks for a great thread/Tusen takk. Finally decided to register so I can impress my Norwegian boyfriend:)

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby ich » 2016-05-19, 13:31

Hi again. I am having some more issues with Norwegian gender. Eventually, I will get this. :P I was using the link provided by Johanna. According to that dictionary, "hytte" has two options. m. 1. and f. 1. So far so good. I ran into the word "and," however, meaning "duck," and as options, I have just m. and f. Does the number 1 here have any significance? Thanks again.

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2016-05-19, 13:54

ich wrote:Hi again. I am having some more issues with Norwegian gender. Eventually, I will get this. :P I was using the link provided by Johanna. According to that dictionary, "hytte" has two options. m. 1. and f. 1. So far so good. I ran into the word "and," however, meaning "duck," and as options, I have just m. and f. Does the number 1 here have any significance? Thanks again.

Not really, I think the number is about the conjugation patterns, and when it comes to nouns it looks like the ones with a 1 are completely regular and the ones without have at least one irregularity; and, bok and datter all have just m and f and all have umlaut in plural (and - ender, bok - bøker, datter - døtre/døtrer).

So unless you learn better by sorting all words into nice little categories, you can pretty much ignore the number, especially since they give you the exact conjugation if you click on those abbreviations :)
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby ich » 2016-05-19, 14:39

Wow, thanks for that quick response. As nerdy as I am, I was actually putting my note cards into nice little categories, while I was awaiting your response. :D
I ran into this page on the site as well in the meantime. I just thought I would just post it.
http://www.nob-ordbok.uio.no/info/bob_forkl.html

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2016-05-19, 16:36

ich wrote:Wow, thanks for that quick response. As nerdy as I am, I was actually putting my note cards into nice little categories, while I was awaiting your response. :D

I'm subscribing to this forum since I'm moderating it, so because I was online at the time I saw your post immediately thanks to the notifications :)

I like to do that sort of sorting too btw, but what really makes me remember conjugations is to use them a lot and then when I learn a new word I remember it by association, so "hytte is like jente" rather than "hytte is m1, f1".

ich wrote:I ran into this page on the site as well in the meantime. I just thought I would just post it.
http://www.nob-ordbok.uio.no/info/bob_forkl.html

I looked for that! I meant to include it in my post, but I couldn't find it for some reason, I guess it was all too obvious :roll:
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Usage of "takk for sist"

Postby mmesford » 2016-12-23, 22:21

Hei,



is it appropriate to say "takk for sist" in response to a nice note from someone you don't communicate with regularly?

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Re: Usage of "takk for sist"

Postby Raufoss » 2016-12-24, 20:24

mmesford wrote:Hei,



is it appropriate to say "takk for sist" in response to a nice note from someone you don't communicate with regularly?

Hei og velkommen mmesford! :welcome:

I typically use "takk for sist" only if I have actually spent some time with someone during the past six months to a year. I'll ask some of my native Norwegian speaking friends and find out what they recommend with respect to using "takk for sist" if you aren't in regular communication with the person you are responding to.

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SV: Usage of "takk for sist"

Postby Raufoss » 2016-12-25, 20:38

mmesford wrote:is it appropriate to say "takk for sist" in response to a nice note from someone you don't communicate with regularly?
According to some of my Norwegian friends it's appropriate to use "takk for sist" if you are writing to someone you have actually spent some time with and you are thanking them for the last time you spent time together. It's my understanding that it's never appropriate to use "takk for sist" with someone you have never met in person.

Jeg håper dette hjelper! :)
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