Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Remis » 2012-05-22, 8:21

Exactly! They probably cheer for Vålerengen as well, and everybody knows that they live on the west side of Akerselven. :mrgreen:

About Majorstua, because I refuse to call it anything else, several people actually tried to protest the change, but it went through anyway. Politics in Oslo in a nutshell, eh? There are worse things, though; ask me about the changes [planned to be] made in and around Bjørvika sometime. :x
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Shad » 2012-05-22, 11:34

Ok, I will start learning Bergensk because Standard Østnorsk is too mainstream and an evil invent to control minds. Good luck to me, considering there are no resources to learn a Norwegian dialect and I'm not moving to Norway anytime soon. Isn't it also a kind of prejudice to judge people because they use what's avaliable? :lol:
I understand what you mean with the attitude towards non-Standard varities, though. It also annoys me. I don't look down on Norwegian dialects or Nynorsk and I don't think they're ugly. I love Norwegian but SO FAR Eastern Norwegian (I guess this is wrong or vague to say) sounds nicer to my ears from what I've heard. I can't say I've been exposed to all Norwegian dialects because I haven't. That would be pretty ambitious. I think I only kinda know Stavangersk and only because I love one band from Stavanger.

I'm aware that speaking pure Bokmål sounds latterlig to native Norwegians and I'd like to make my speech more natural when I'm advanced but I hardly ever have the chance to practice spoken Norwegian (never) so I'm focussing on the written form now and I chose Bokmål. I don't control Norway's language policies and I can't wait until everybody's satisfied so get over it. :lol:

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-22, 12:25

Well, I've been thinking of Bergensk myself :P
I've recently read a book on the history of the Bergen dialect, and the conclusion was
''the local dialect lost the feminine gender through the contact with Low German (Hansa), long before the city was ''Danicized''. 2 gender Bokmaal sounds authentic with the uvular R (skarre R) :yep: , but it sounds fake with West Oslo pronunciation. For Bergen-style Bokmaal I recommend audio books of Gunnar Staalesen's work (always read by Bergen narrators). :)
For a more popular bergensk, I recommend the singer Gabrielle: http://www.youtube.com/user/MsGabrielleMusic

(Uvular R accents/dialects are easier because you don't have to deal with the sandhi retroflexes, it is driving me crazy :x ; I am using skarre R in Portuguese :P , in words like Rio, porta, amor...)

You can't please everyone. But it's sad that many people in West Oslo still despise people who say
Oslo with sh, boka instead of boken or kasta instead of kastet.

I like how these people talk:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk9T-4lgx4I


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TJYvKaZKOQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz_ugZNVo-8
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Shad » 2012-05-22, 14:20

I love skarre R. It's one of the reasons I like Stavangersk. I haven't heard much of Bergensk and I don't remember how it sounds.

TeneReef wrote:(Uvular R accents/dialects are easier because you don't have to deal with the sandhi retroflexes, it is driving me crazy :x ; I am using skarre R in Portuguese :P , in words like Rio, porta, amor...)


Carioca! :P

What are sandhi retroflexes? :oops:

TeneReef wrote:You can't please everyone. But it's sad that many people in West Oslo still despise people who say
Oslo with sh, boka instead of boken or kasta instead of kastet.


:shock: I thought pronouncing Oslo with sh was the norm.

I'll watch the videos later!

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Remis » 2012-05-22, 14:50

Shadad wrote:What are sandhi retroflexes? :oops:
/ɾd/ -> [ɖ]
/ɾl/ -> [ɭ]
/ɾn/ -> [ɳ]
/ɾs/ -> [ʂ]
/ɾt/ -> [ʈ]
Basically, r + d/l/n/s/t turns into the retroflex counterpart of the second consonant (at least in my idiolect [9/10ths Eastern Oslo + 1/10th Finnmark]!). There are some others as well, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.
:shock: I thought pronouncing Oslo with sh was the norm.
It is! It's just that there do exist dialects that pronounce it differently (ie. [uslu] I guess. ... Jeez, that sounds so weird :?).
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-22, 16:00

Sandhi reflexives, the ones which appear in connected speech, between two words:

er du norsk?
rd [ɖ]

(Part of syntactic phonetics, just like the end in English, with an [i]).
(The ones within a word are easy :) )
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Shad » 2012-05-25, 22:48

Ok, I love Stavangeresk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4LrkHgiwHQ

Maybe I want to speak Norwegian like that now. :lol:

He was actually born in Bryne:

Wikipedia wrote:Bryne is located about 25 minutes south of Stavanger by train.

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-26, 11:56

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-26, 14:51

In case you're interested, the pronunciation of tones:

Oslo: tone1 LH, tone 2: HLH
Hamar: tone1 LH, tone 2: HL
Stavanger: tone1 (L)HL, tone2: HLHL
Coastal Troms: tone 1 HL, tone2: LHL (exactly like as in the old notation: ròta ~ rôta)

(the Stavanger tonal system seems to me the most difficult,
it contains the Southeastern tones, but with an additional sharp downfall at the end of the word)
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Remis » 2012-05-26, 15:18

TeneReef wrote:Oslo: tone1 LH, tone 2: HLH
...Huh? I thought tone 2 was HL?
Bǿnder (farmers), Bònner (beans).
Unless you're including the <e>, in which case I can get the HLH thing. Maybe it's HL(H)?

EDIT:
Wikipedia wrote:In most eastern low-tone dialects, accent 1 uses a low flat pitch in the first syllable, while accent 2 uses a high, sharply falling pitch in the first syllable and a low pitch in the beginning of the second syllable.
So... Tone 1 = L, tone 2 = HL.L? Makes sense, because I'm pretty sure I pronounce bønder (normally tone 1) as L.H and bønner (normally tone 2) as HL... Actually, I pronounce bønner as HL.H, I think. Huh.
Remis Kalvan | art / ˈfɛɪsˌbʊk | L1: [flag]no-nb[/flag] L2: [flag]en[/flag] reading short stories in: [flag]it[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]

TAC 2012 [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]la[/flag] ([flag]es-mx[/flag] [flag]non[/flag])
Of immense interest: [flag]grc[/flag] [flag]akk[/flag] [flag]egy[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag] [flag]mt[/flag] [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]prg[/flag] [flag]nah[/flag] [flag]qu[/flag] [flag]nv[/flag] [flag]zh.Hant[/flag]
Wanderlustin' for [flag]ain[/flag] [flag]ka[/flag] [flag]mn[/flag] [flag]cy[/flag] [flag]af[/flag]

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Shad » 2012-05-26, 15:48

I must confess, I never really paid serious attention to tones in Norwegian.
:oops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHnXihStww0

I'm going to try those words myself later if my webcam's mic is working fine.

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-26, 16:09

She is not pronouncing tones in a standard East Norwegian way,

in her dialect: tone 1: LH, tone 2: HL

in standard East Norwegian:
tone 1: LH, tone 2: HLH

there should be a final rise in the 2nd tone :wink:
(or maybe she is simplifying things saying tone 1 is rising, and tone 2 is falling,
in fact tone 1 in Oslo dialect is rising (low-high) and tone 2 is falling-rising (high-low-high).

To me she sounds like someone from Eidsvoll and Hamar, because I can't hear a clear final
rise in the 2nd tone :)
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Remis » 2012-05-26, 16:13

Shadad wrote:I must confess, I never really paid serious attention to tones in Norwegian.
:oops:
Me neither, and I speak the bloody language! :P Seriously though, Norwegian (or even Scandinavian) tones are a major mindfuck to me, especially because of all the differing dialects, not to mention my own not completely corresponding to neither Standard Eastern, Oslo, or Northern.
...I have no idea how I'm gonna come out alive from my Japanese adventures, even though their tones are basically the same as ours. :para:
Remis Kalvan | art / ˈfɛɪsˌbʊk | L1: [flag]no-nb[/flag] L2: [flag]en[/flag] reading short stories in: [flag]it[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]

TAC 2012 [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]la[/flag] ([flag]es-mx[/flag] [flag]non[/flag])
Of immense interest: [flag]grc[/flag] [flag]akk[/flag] [flag]egy[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag] [flag]mt[/flag] [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]prg[/flag] [flag]nah[/flag] [flag]qu[/flag] [flag]nv[/flag] [flag]zh.Hant[/flag]
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-26, 16:14

Remis wrote:
Shadad wrote:I must confess, I never really paid serious attention to tones in Norwegian.
:oops:
Me neither, and I speak the bloody language! :P Seriously though, Norwegian (or even Scandinavian) tones are a major mindfuck to me, especially because of all the differing dialects, not to mention my own not completely corresponding to neither Standard Eastern, Oslo, or Northern.
...I have no idea how I'm gonna come out alive from my Japanese adventures, even though their tones are basically the same as ours. :para:


I hope you find this helpful for Japanese:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeaLEC6KO20
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Shad » 2012-05-26, 17:18

Norwegian is hard.

TeneReef*, any video or sound sample where I can hear Standard East Nowegian tones? Jeg er dum.

* Does your nickname come from Tenerife?
Last edited by Shad on 2012-05-26, 18:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-26, 18:00

You can hear tones here, unfortunately no examples from Oslo. :roll:


http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/no/tema_008.html

All of them seem so sutble to me, except for the Bryne, Rogaland dialect and the 1st and the 3rd example from the Herøy, Sunnmøre dialect. (But if you compare them; lynet in Bryne sounds like lyne in Herøy, while lyne in Bryne sounds like lynet in Herøy; it's completely opposite, one is rising in one dialect, but falling in another one :P )

Tones in Bryne, Rogaland dialect spead through the whole word, so it is like asking a question or answering a question.

Tones in Herøy, Sunnmøre are like in Croatian (at least in the 1st and the 3rd example), they affect only the stressed syllable: l`ynet (falling in the 1st syllable) ~ l^yne (rising and falling in the 1st syllable), sòla ~ Sôla (a perfect example of older marking of tones, which were based on Western dialects).


(No wonder interdialectal recognition of tones in isolated words is around 50%.
And in mathematics, 50% is called guessing. :lol: )

Overall, the most difficult thing for me is to pronounce the 2nd tone in words with a short vowel (closed syllable), for example jente, jenta...
sola ~ Sola contrast is easy. :)
lammet ~ lamme contrast is difficult.
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Remis » 2012-05-26, 22:14

I could probably upload a sample of my own speech, if you guys like? Note that my dialect is a conglomeration of three dialects, though I'd say it's at least 90% (Eastern) Oslo, so...
TeneReef wrote:I hope you find this helpful for Japanese:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeaLEC6KO20
Ooh, thank you! That really does explain a lot! :mrgreen:
Remis Kalvan | art / ˈfɛɪsˌbʊk | L1: [flag]no-nb[/flag] L2: [flag]en[/flag] reading short stories in: [flag]it[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]

TAC 2012 [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]la[/flag] ([flag]es-mx[/flag] [flag]non[/flag])
Of immense interest: [flag]grc[/flag] [flag]akk[/flag] [flag]egy[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag] [flag]mt[/flag] [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]prg[/flag] [flag]nah[/flag] [flag]qu[/flag] [flag]nv[/flag] [flag]zh.Hant[/flag]
Wanderlustin' for [flag]ain[/flag] [flag]ka[/flag] [flag]mn[/flag] [flag]cy[/flag] [flag]af[/flag]

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Shad » 2012-05-26, 22:35

Remis wrote:I could probably upload a sample of my own speech, if you guys like?


Yes, Remy, that'd be appreciated! :)

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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-26, 23:18

Remis wrote:I could probably upload a sample of my own speech, if you guys like? Note that my dialect is a conglomeration of three dialects, though I'd say it's at least 90% (Eastern) Oslo, so...
TeneReef wrote:I hope you find this helpful for Japanese:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeaLEC6KO20
Ooh, thank you! That really does explain a lot! :mrgreen:



Try pronouncing the whole sentence, for example:

Jenta vil gjerne reise til Norge. :P
Isolated words are useless for practical learning. :hmm:
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Re: Bokmål eller Nynorsk?

Postby Remis » 2012-05-26, 23:24

Shadad wrote:
Remis wrote:I could probably upload a sample of my own speech, if you guys like?


Yes, Remy, that'd be appreciated! :)
Alright, then. Is there anything specific you guys want me to say?
TeneReef wrote:Try pronouncing the whole sentence, for example:

Jenta vil gjerne reise til Norge. :P
Isolated words are useless for practical learning. :hmm:
Okay, I can do that. :P I was actually considering reading a Wikipedia article or something, but if you guys have specifics, then that's better, really.
This is your chance to get me to pronounce hard Norwegian words! :roll:
Remis Kalvan | art / ˈfɛɪsˌbʊk | L1: [flag]no-nb[/flag] L2: [flag]en[/flag] reading short stories in: [flag]it[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]

TAC 2012 [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]la[/flag] ([flag]es-mx[/flag] [flag]non[/flag])
Of immense interest: [flag]grc[/flag] [flag]akk[/flag] [flag]egy[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag] [flag]mt[/flag] [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]prg[/flag] [flag]nah[/flag] [flag]qu[/flag] [flag]nv[/flag] [flag]zh.Hant[/flag]
Wanderlustin' for [flag]ain[/flag] [flag]ka[/flag] [flag]mn[/flag] [flag]cy[/flag] [flag]af[/flag]


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