PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-05-12, 0:39

I (sadly) know very little about how Norwegian tones function, but I'm pretty sure your transcriptions are correct (if your ´ and ` correspond to the Mandarin equivalents, anyway).
I think I pronounce Hammerfest as ['hámmr,fèst] (Eastern Oslo). My mum, who speaks a Northern dialect, says [,hámmer'fæst]. Keep in mind that the Northern dialects supposedly don't have as many/as pronounced tones as Eastern/etc. dialects.
tákk, bíl, mén (are tàkk, bìl, mèn possible? )
I think so! I might be/probably am wrong, but I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't be possible.

That's all I've got, sorry. :? Aleco probably knows more. :P
Speaking of which,
Aleco wrote:None of these would read in a Bokmål accent. Of course, these are all young, so if Remis' mom does so, maybe it's something people would often do earlier? :hmm:
Might be? She's old enough to have had to learn to recite hymns and psalms from heart for class; which is so "long ago" (before 1990), that Sámi kids weren't allowed speak their language at school, so...
I don't think my cousin would read a bokmål text in a Western Oslo dialect, but then again she just recently quit writing in her own dialect (Finnmarking) in favour of bokmål.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-12, 1:37

Thanks to the PDFs you sent me, TeneReef, I now understand the logic behind the tones :)

I hear my friends from the north say those monosyllabic words with falling tones, though it's as though they're weaker than in e.g. sola. Maybe this is why they there's no tone in monosyllabic words? The only reason they have this tone could be because they might be stressed or something? Not entirely sure :hmm:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Dingbats » 2012-05-12, 8:56

There's no tonal distinction in monosyllabic words, so it's meaningless to talk about them having one tone or the other. By convention, they're sometimes specified as having the acute accent (first tone), but that's just convention. Tones in Scandinavian can't be compared to properly tonal languages like Chinese, where the actual tone curve and height in every syllable matters. Norwegian and Swedish tones only carry meaning when contrasted with the other syllables in the same word.

You can pronounce a monosyllabic word with any tone pattern you like, just like you can in English or any other language. So talk of "bíl" or "bìl" doesn't make sense.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-12, 10:14

Right... But still, a Northerner would say bìl when asked to say the word, while I would say bíl. Whether it distnguishes one word from the other doesn't really matter; I'm just talking about the way people pronounce that word. They're not true tonal languages alright, but I'm assuming TeneReef wants to understand the accents as well possible, firstly because he's interested in dialectology, and secondly because he wants to try and get as good an accent as possible when speaking Norwegian.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Dingbats » 2012-05-12, 10:23

Aleco wrote:Right... But still, a Northerner would say bìl when asked to say the word, while I would say bíl.

Without sound samples or some other way of explaining what those accents mean, there's no way to understand what the difference would be. In Scandinavian dialectology, the grave and acute accents are only used to indicate tone relative to the other syllables of the same word, so they're meaningless in monosyllables. The exact phonetic nature of the tonal patterns varies enormously, so for all I know you could mean basically anything with those "bíl" and "bìl".

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-12, 13:10

I see. I wasn't aware of that.

I attached a sound sample anyways. The first word being what I described by writing bíl, and the second one being bìl.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Dingbats » 2012-05-12, 13:25

Aleco wrote:I attached a sound sample anyways. The first word being what I described by writing bíl, and the second one being bìl.

Okay, those are obviously different, but I find it hard to believe there's anything to it except difference in intonation (as opposed to word tone). Intonation may of course differ from dialect to dialect, so that speakers of some dialects are more likely to produce "bíl" in the same context that others would say "bìl", but that's a feature of sentence-level prosody and has little to do with the pitch accent opposition that applies to polysyllables.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-12, 13:53

Thanks for the sound sample. I think there is a phonetic difference, but it does not matter phonologically. :P

Here you can compare tonemes across various dialects:
http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/no/tema_008.html

Herøy, Sunnmøre is the easiest for me to copy
(since it is identical to the tones in B/C/S:
Lúka = Lucas, lùka = harbor;
ótrovan = poisoned; òtrovan = poisonous;
vláda = government, vlàda = [he,she, it] governs
)


The Bodø distinction is so subtle.
(And some sources state the Bodø dialect has lost the tonal opposition).


Make sure you check this article out, various Norwegian and Swedish accents/dialects are compared:
Bergen and Malmö share the same tonal melodies, so do Oslo and Norrköping; and Stockholm and Stavanger. No phonological tone in Överkalix, Helsinki and Stril.
http://www.hum.uit.no/tidsskrifter/nord ... 4/Riad.pdf
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby language learner » 2012-05-12, 15:09

I have seen that in cases where the vowel is surrounded by retroflex consonants - as in Jeg lærer norsk (both n and s are retroflex, right?) - I dont change the position of my tongue while pronouncing o. Is this right?

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-12, 15:16

Thanks, Dingbats for clearing those things up for me :)

Imen: that's right :)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-17, 11:02

Æ vil bare dans was supposed to sound like Everybody dance? :P
They did fool me. :oops: I heard the alveolar r as a tap t/d. :P :ohwell:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-17, 12:30

Haha, verkeleg? :lol:

That's actually not far from the pronunciation! I didn't realize it until you said it though :lol:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-21, 18:17

Can unstressed JEG be pronounced as JÆ?; I mean, before verbs and stuff like that. :roll:
I still haven't found the right word for I. :( I think I like eg the best.
Most people from Baerum pronounce it like jäi/jai (with a frontal to central A, like French a, of course not with a back A). :roll: I like the Æ pronunciation too, but it's just one single vowel, and may not be heard in fast speech. :doggy: (I like when Gabrielle sings RING MÆ :silly: ).

(Why do you make a tonal distinction between uttale (pronunciation) and uttale (to pronounce),
when in the case of samtale there is no such difference (the same tone is used for the noun and for the verb) :hmm: )
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-21, 19:27

TeneReef wrote:Can unstressed JEG be pronounced as JÆ?; I mean, before verbs and stuff like that. :roll:
I still haven't found the right word for I. :( I think I like eg the best.
Most people from Baerum pronounce it like jäi/jai (with a frontal to central A, like French a, of course not with a back A). :roll: I like the Æ pronunciation too, but it's just one single vowel, and may not be heard in fast speech. :doggy: (I like when Gabrielle sings RING MÆ :silly: ).

(Why do you make a tonal distinction between uttale (pronunciation) and uttale (to pronounce),
when in the case of samtale there is no such difference (the same tone is used for the noun and for the verb) :hmm: )

Where I'm from we normally pronounce "jeg" as /ja/, while the /jaj/ is usually the stressed equivalent. It's similar to certain people's English pronunciation of "I" actually ("I want to" vs "I want to"). I believe it's all the same around the Oslofjord. Note that the pronunciation of /æ/ as /a/ is mostly due to people being too lazy to form /æ/ with their lips. Most (around the Oslofjord), if not all, would still pronounce it as /æ/ if they were e.g. shouting because they would have to open their mouth wide open anyway.

(I had to think about that one. My first theory was that uttale is a compound made up of two independently functioning words, while samtale is made up of a prefix and a verb/noun. However e.g. glattkjøre gets the same tone as samtale. Thinking about it some more, I think words made up of a one-syllable preposition + verb get this accent shift. It's the same with words like påtale, omtale, and avtale.)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-21, 19:47

Tusen takk for forklaringa. :y:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-21, 19:50

Og takk for at du spurte! Nå lærte jeg noe nytt sjøl :)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-27, 14:22

Some tricks for foreign learners,
intonation and tones are secondary [less important]:

The fact that listeners give a more favourable response to the correction of duration of vowels than to the correction of intonation contour, may also be explained with reference to both linguistics and sociolinguistics. Irrespective of dialects, the opposition of long and short vowels is an inherent feature of Norwegian. As intonational patterns differ substantially, and as there is no standard pattern, listeners are used to different realizations. So as long as the opposition between stressed and unstressed syllables (and correct vowel duration within stressed syllables) was maintained,
listeners may have judged the speech samples more with respect to intelligibility, receiving sufficient information to regard the NL2 speaker as communicatively competent.


source: http://www.hf.ntnu.no/anv/hjemmesiderif ... ds2000.pdf


My question: How does retroflexivization affect the vowel length?
stjerna, barna are pronounced with a long stressed vowel or with a short stressed vowel?
:hmm: (in norsk, mars, Lars the vowel is short, but how about other examples?)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-05-27, 14:45

TeneReef wrote:My question: How does retroflexivization affect the vowel length?
stjerna, barna are pronounced with a long stressed vowel or with a short stressed vowel?
:hmm: (in norsk, mars, Lars the vowel is short, but how about other examples?)
I don't think it affects it at all. /stjæːɳa/ and /bɑɳa/ here. (Though the opposite works for both.)

By the way, Mars (the planet) = long /ɑ/ for me, while mars (the month and the noun) = short /ɑ/ (or /a/? I dunno, either way it's short). I think that's because Mars is a loanword from Latin, though (but then again, mars [month/noun] are from Old French, so...).
Lars is also long /ɑ/ for me, while norsk is short /o/. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say Lars with a short <a>.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-27, 15:42

I would really like to implement accents in the Norwegian orthography to denote length...
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-05-27, 15:44

Aleco wrote:I would really like to implement accents in the Norwegian orthography to denote length...
This.
I've been trying to make a logical orthography for my own dialect (mostly for fun, but yanno), and macrons are awesome for that purpose.
...Except for things like æ, ø and å. :roll:
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