PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-10-17, 15:29

имен wrote:How is gli pronounced? Is g silent?
No; it's pronounced /gli:/ (more or less; this also depends on your dialect etc. etc., but the /g/ is always pronounced). I don't think Norwegian has any allophones for /g/, except for /j/, of course (e.g. geit /jæit/, gikk /jik/).
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Dingbats » 2012-10-17, 17:32

Remis wrote:I don't think Norwegian has any allophones for /g/, except for /j/, of course (e.g. geit /jæit/, gikk /jik/).

Nitpick: that's not an allophone, it's a morphophonological alternation between /g/ and /j/. You could argue that they're allophones in that context (some do, but I find the arguments hard to accept), but in that case you'd have to use [phonetic brackets] not /phonemic slashes/.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2013-03-08, 21:50

This is why foreigners hear East Norwegian æ as [ä] (so meg, deg sound not unlike English my, die), the position of Norwegian /æ / is completely central, like IPA [ä]:

Image

Other interesting facts, the qualitative difference between open and close O is now neutralized, an in-between vowel is used, and the difference is expressed through vowel length.
But the qualitative contrast between open and close E is still maintained.

Source: The phonology of Norwegian (G. Kristoffersen)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2013-03-08, 22:14

I am actually surprised that open and close "O" and "I" are that similar in Oslo! Especially "O". On the other hand, I'm not surprised that schwa and open "Ø" are perceived as pretty similar. The only thing I do different is that I pull my tongue back for Ø and nowhere for schwa. I'm also pretty convinced that my "Æ" is a pure [a].
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby cataphor » 2013-03-27, 9:42

Hi there!

I have a question regarding the intonation of a certain construction. Consider the following dialogue:

(1) Jeg skal nok være her på sommeren jeg òg.

It is hard for me to hear what the intonation on A2 is. Is the stress pattern like in the following? (captial letters stand for stress)

(2) Jeg skal nok VÆre her på sommeren jeg òg.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2013-03-27, 10:15

Welcome! Great to see some not-so-familiar faces :)

Yours seems like it would sound pretty good, but I also feel that I stress "skal" and "være" the same amount. But that might just be because it's out of context.

But depending on what you want to say, this of course varies ;)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby cataphor » 2013-03-27, 11:06

Hi Aleco and thanks for your reply!

So would you agree that it is not possible to leave a stress out in the main clause, such that you would, e.g., only say (1)-(3), without any stress in the main clause?

(1) Jeg skal nok være her på sommeren jeg ÒG.
(2) Jeg snakker ikke tysk JEG engang.
(3) Han morten har det fulle ansvaret HAN.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby cataphor » 2013-03-27, 12:09

And right another question with regard to this. When you want to convey a contrast, is it, then, possible to say (1)? And how would the intonation be, something like (2) or (3)?

A: Per og Marit liker ikke å reise.
(1) B: Nei, han liker å reise han Per.

(2) Nei, HAN liker å reise han Per.

(3) Nei, HAN liker å reise han PER.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2013-03-27, 18:16

cataphor wrote:Hi Aleco and thanks for your reply!

So would you agree that it is not possible to leave a stress out in the main clause, such that you would, e.g., only say (1)-(3), without any stress in the main clause?

(1) Jeg skal nok være her på sommeren jeg ÒG.
(2) Jeg snakker ikke tysk JEG engang.
(3) Han morten har det fulle ansvaret HAN.
No, I would say I stress both a word in the main clause as well as the word with the actual stress effect (repeated pronoun, òg, også etc.).
1. Jeg SKAL nok være her på sommeren, jeg ÒG.
2. Jeg SNAKKer ikke tysk, JEG engang.
3. Han MORTen har det fulle ansvaret, HAN.


(What word to stress in the main clause is very circumstancial. Without stretching it to more extreme situations, you could also stress være - sommeren - tysk - fulle.
cataphor wrote:And right another question with regard to this. When you want to convey a contrast, is it, then, possible to say (1)? And how would the intonation be, something like (2) or (3)?

A: Per og Marit liker ikke å reise.
(1) B: Nei, han liker å reise han Per.

(2) Nei, HAN liker å reise han Per.

(3) Nei, HAN liker å reise han PER.

Hmm this is a tricky one. First of all, allow me to alter the sentence to make it more natural.
A: Per og Marit liker ikke å reise.
B: Jo, han Per liker å reise, han.

(Jo, han liker å reise, han Per is more likely to be used if A had stated, without mentioning Marit, that Per didn't like traveling.)
First of all, the intonation in this type of sentence (B) is strangely similar to a question at the end. As for the stress, you can actually choose between stressing Per, LIKer or REISe pretty freely, depending on what you want to focus on. However, what seems to come to me the most natural, if I had to choose, is actually stressing REISe.

If you really wanted to check the han _____ han Per format, I would tell you that in these sentences where the pronoun is repeated, it appears that the first one is never stressed - I guess it sort of removes the purpose of having two pronouns (and sometimes you can even hear people skipping the first one, only leaving the final one, making the sentence VOS, which is sort of cool in a nerdy way). Take this rule about never stressing the first pronoun (when there's a pair) with a grain of salt, though, as one can always seem to find exceptions to any rule.
So in this situation:
A: Per LIKer ikke å reise
B: Jo, han LIKer å reise, han PER / Jo, han liker å REISe, han PER.


I hope this answers your questions! Please tell me if I was being ambiguous or if it seems that I have misunderstood your question.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2013-04-25, 20:10

How do you like these two? :partyhat:
http://www3.germanistik.uni-halle.de/pr ... en/108.htm
http://www3.germanistik.uni-halle.de/pr ... en/109.htm

They both sound very flat, not much singy intonation typical of norsk. :?
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2013-04-25, 21:15

Hehe, their intonation was interesting! The first one sounded like a northerner who tried to speak pure Bokmål, and the second one sounded like a southerner doing the same thing :)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2013-04-30, 16:51

I don't understand the underlined.
Why is it pronounced with a different tone? :(

I norsk og svensk er det to tonelag, tonelag 1 og 2. Norsk har mange av minimale par, ordpar som skil seg frå kvarandre berre med tone. Dei dialektane som har e-infinitiv har tusenvis av slike minimale par:

bestemt form eintal av avleidd substantiv vs. infinitiv: kastet / kaste
verb + preposisjonsfrase vs. verb + partikkel: slå på radioen / slå-på radioen («øydeleggje radioen» / «trykke på på-knappen»)


http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonelag

(I don't have to worry too much about kastet/kasta, since I use -a infinitives :mrgreen: :


å kasta - kastar - har kasta

is the same tone used in all these?
the 1st tone? :hmm: )
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2013-04-30, 17:02

1. Yes, all forms of kasta have the same tone ;)

2. It's like I mentioned on the top of this page:
On a different note, I just noticed that prepositional verbs with dra may have different meanings depending on the tone.
Jeg drar fra Kari (tone 1) = I'm leaving Kari's.
Jeg drar fra Kari (tone 2) = I'm leaving Kari (divorce/separation)
Jeg drar til Kari (tone 1) = I'm going to Kari's.
Jeg drar til Kari (tone 2) = I'm punching Kari.
Jeg drar gjennom Kari (tone 1) = I'm going through Kari
Jeg drar gjennom Kari (tone 2) = I'm pulling Kari through
Jeg drar på [noe] (tone 1) = I'm pulling [something] along.
Jeg drar på (tone 2) = I'm accelerating

This also goes for any other particle verbs. In Swedish, you differentiate between the two by stressing either the verb (verb + preposition) or the preposition (particle verb). Here, you generally have the literal meaning in tone 1, and the figurative meaning in tone 2.

Eg slår på radioen (tone 1) = I'm hitting the radio. (to get better reception)
Eg slår på radioen (tone 2) = I'm turning the radio on.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2013-05-12, 23:27

I've noticed that many people have difficulties distinguishing between raising a voice and a rising tone. :?

And the fact that in many languages and dialects intonation in questions, declaratives, exclamations (!), non-finishing (...) can be different, makes it difficult to explain the tones correctly.

My falling tones in Croatian start with a rising voice,
it's because in order to get to H, one has to raise the voice (or at least I have to). :mrgreen:
Falling tones in Croatian are: HL, just like exclamations in English (this!), and exactly like the 4th tone in Mandarin, they're not ML as in some other languages (or statesments in English: this.).

(I have rising tones in Croatian only in oxytone words, because there is no following syllable for a voice to fall, so it stays high: studént, sapún (soap), bombón, leptír (butterfly) and so on).

The Bergen dialect has: MHML for the first tone, and MHHM for the second tone,
the tonal contour is similar, only the timing is different (the second tone in bisyllabic words is
like 2nd Mandarin tone on the 1st syllable, and 4th Mandarin tone on the second sillable, but the voice never goes to low (as in: this., but is stays mid as in: this!, or this, or this...)

I find the first tone in hightone dialects (western/northern) more difficult to pronounce than the 2nd tone.
Is it okay to pronounce it as a 3rd halftone in Mandarin?
boka...If I start with bo in the M(edium) range, I can only pronounce ka by lowering my voice. :rotfl: but, it's way funny. :P I have not enough low pitch left, so I have to lower my voice on ka. :cry: (as in: my voice is deeper on ka).
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2013-05-13, 1:28

Yes, a falling tone starts off with a rising voice for me as well ;) What you describe you have to do with your voice in order to say -ka after bo- makes sense to me. My voice is definitely deeper on the "bo" and higher on "ka" (as "boka" is bóka/bo´ka/boka1 to me). And no, I'm not confusing pitch and voice here ;)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby MajaS » 2013-05-13, 16:08

hei!Jeg heter Maja.Jeg er ny her.Jeg også lære norsk.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Raufoss » 2013-05-13, 17:39

MajaS wrote:Hei!Jeg heter Maja.Jeg er ny her.Jeg lærer norsk også.
Velkommen til det norske språk forumet, og lykke til med å lære deg norsk, MajaS! :welcome:
Vær snill og rett feilene mine

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2013-06-01, 15:29

Hi,
the vowel in gul, gult is long, right?
but the lady here pronounces it short :?
http://de.pons.eu/dict/search/results/? ... &in=&lf=no
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2013-06-01, 18:28

I'd say she's just pronouncing the word very fast. It doesn't sound like "gull" :nope:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2013-06-01, 19:15

The vowel in kjem is long or short? :hmm:
In Nynorsk, D is pronounced in med?(And G in og?)
Arna is pronounced with tone1 or 2?

Mange takk for hjelpa :wink:
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