Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

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Milya0
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Milya0 » 2010-06-09, 14:30

No, that's not the same thing - and [s͡ç] is a sequence of two sounds.

No, it isn't. Arch means that both are pronounced simultaneously.

You won't succeed with Cyrillic because there is not enough symbols in for cases like "s - ś - sz".

с - щ - ш
ц - ћ - ч
з - ӟ (?) - ж
ѕ - ђ - џ

Polish "ś" isn't pronounced [sʲ] neither, but it etymologically comes from "s", so writing it as "сь" makes more sense and isn't as misleading.

Some people pronounce that way.
Qroo₃₁ kaa₄ cro₂ kraa₃ kaa₄ qo₄₁ cra₄₁ ka₄ qoo₄₂ krá₄₂.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Michael » 2010-08-16, 22:42

I actually have another alphabet in mind, based on Russian palatalization patterns adapted to Polish palatalization, that makes it look naturally Cyrillic. I'll post a transliteration of the UDHR from Latin Polish to Cyrillic Polish,
Latin Polish:
"Wszyscy ludzie rodzą się wolni i równi pod względem swej godności i swych praw. Są oni obdarzeni rozumem i sumieniem i powinni postępować wobec innych w duchu braterstwa."
Cyrillic Polish:
"Вшысцы люде родзѫ сѩ вольни и рувни под взглѩдэм свэй годности и свых прав. Сѫ они обдарени розумэм и суменем и повинни постѧповать вобэц инных в духу братэрства. "
Last edited by Michael on 2010-08-16, 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-08-16, 22:45

That's exactly like the system I devised.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Formiko » 2010-08-16, 22:58

pittmirg wrote:Я немам ніц пшэцівко пісаню <ў> в мійсцэ /w/. Позвала то на запіс тым самым знакем і тых /w/ пісаных в ўацінцэ яко <ł> і тых пісаных яко <u>, подчас гды пісане нп. <Элропа> быўо бы рачэй ѕівачнэ.
Пэвноӈ вадоӈ такего розвёӈзаня ест то, жэ мней пасуе то до всходніх дялэктув з "ł крэсовым".

Цесаж Росьи Миколай I Романов пляновал од року 1852 впровадзене цырылицы, достосованэй до запису йęзыка польскего в целю русыфикацьи Крóлества Польскего. Прóбы те натрафилы еднак на вельке трудношьчи натуры лингвистычнэй и политычнэй. Немало пжычынил шьę до тего упóр самэго цара, ктóры уважал шьę за спэциялистę в тей джеджине (и в инных; особишьче цензуровал Пушкина). Варто в тым мейсцу пжыпомнечь высилки Юзефа Сталина, ктóры был навет ауторем прац о граматыце йęзыка росыйскего


Едыне сўушна вэрс'я ужывана обэцне пшэс Піттмірга: ( :P )

Цэсаж Росї Мікоўай I Романов плановаў од року 1852 впроваѕэне цырыліцы, достосованэй до запісу еӈзыка полскего в цэлу русыфікацї Крулэства Полскего. Прубы тэ натрафіўы еднак на велке трудносці натуры ліӈгвістычнэй і політычнэй. Немаўо пшычыніў се до тэго упур самэго цара, ктуры уважаў се за спэц'ялістэ в тэй ѕеѕіне (і в інных; особісце цэнзуроваў Пушкіна). Варто в тым мійсцу пшыпомнець высіўкі Юзэфа Сталіна, ктуры быў навэт аўторэм прац о граматыцэ еӈзыка росыйскего.

А кілка лат тэму стосоваўэм інноӈ вэрс'е, опартоӈ на росыйскей цырыліцы.


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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Michael » 2010-08-16, 23:05

Talib wrote:That's exactly like the system I devised.
I don't find it a coincidence; you must have really studied Russian-Polish phonological differences too. For example, I assume that in both our transliterations,
la le li lo lu ly
ля ле ли лё лю льы* **
ła łe łi ło łu ły
ла лэ лъи* ** ло лу** лы
*don't have to worry about those because Polish phonology doesn't allow them
**not sure if Polish phonology would allow them
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby pittmirg » 2010-08-23, 12:32

@Formiko: normalnym, polskim :P

@Michael: /wi/ exists in loanwords such as weekend, /wu/ is frequent in native words (złudzenie, łódź). The status of /lɨ/ is more dubious, but it can occur in some rather obscure borrowings such as glyptodon (also: gliptodont), you can also encounter people mockingly writing or saying elyta instead of elita (this is perhaps parodying the hardening of li which has happened in certain dialects, though I don't know for sure).
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Xfing » 2010-11-25, 15:39

Well, after reading the last few pages I decided to make a few changes to my cyrillic system of writing.

Firstly, just today I've come up with another alternative to the problematic transcription of "rz". What helped me was an actual example - a name of a Russian scientist of Polish descent, Przewalski (the wild Przewalski's horse was named after that man). Into Russian, that name was transliterated as Пpжeвaльcкий. While the pronunciation itself is altered in the transcription from Polish to Russian (it sounds like "Prżiewalskij"), I think it presents a nice option to settle this dispute.

Therefore I suggest:

rz = pж

rż = pъж

Other than that, I decided to reinclude the usage of iotated vowels for "ia, iu, ie, ią", as my previous system was just stupid and pointless. I'll leave ó because of its providing of an inflectional clue (ó changes into o in plural). The rare, archaic letters like ѯ or ѱ will be left optional, they look cool if you want to make your text more graphically intricate. Also, I've been thinking of using Җҗ for Źź, but I don't think it's that good of a choice, ЗЬзь is probably better and more natural and keeps the soft mark from going obsolte. Sigh... more Keyboard Layout Creator modifications to go :D

Oh, and one last thing: I'm not too keen on using ў. It may exactly represent the polish ł sound, but its origins are different, as in Belarusian it mostly corresponds to Polish "w" in words. Belarusian Łł is the equivalent of Polish Łł, but it sounds more like the "scenic l". I would keep Лл for Łł and Љљ for Ll.
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby pittmirg » 2010-11-25, 17:27

Xfing wrote: I'll leave ó because of its providing of an inflectional clue (ó changes into o in plural).


Particularly in król, ból.
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Xfing » 2010-11-26, 2:51

Your sarcasm was uncalled for. There are actual examples of this like płód, słód, głód, miód, powód etc. Ból also changes, but not in plural but in its verb form, into boleć, boli and so on. That's why I'd keep ó in the cyrillic script. But that's just me. If you disagree, it's fine.
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Xfing » 2010-11-26, 23:07

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... loe9vyVsZc

Тутaйъ вcтaвилэмъ въ мяpѧ уcыcтэмaтызoвaнэ пoдcумoвaнe мoeйъ вэpcйи aљфaбэту. Пocтaнoвилэмъ poзбићъ ґo нa двe вэpcъe - пэлнѫ (дэкopaцыйнѫ) opaзъ упpoщoнѫ (тo, цo тэpaзъ пишѧ, ecтъ въ пэлнэйъ). Вэpcъя упpoщoнa oдpжуцa тэ бapѕeйъ эґзoтычнэ знaки и oґpaничa зacóбъ знaкóвъ мнeйъ-вѩцэйъ дo минимумъ, бы нэцo улaтвићъ чытaнe Pocянoмъ, Укpaињцoмъ, Бялopуcинoмъ љубъ Cэpбoмъ. Нa пpжыклaдъ, тo, цo въ пэлнэйъ вэpcйи зaпишѧ "эѯкoмуникoвaћъ", в упpoщoнэйъ зaпишѧ "экcкoмуникoвaць". Пoљэцaмъ љэктуpѧ дoкумэнту пoд љинкeмъ opaзъ кoнcтpуктывнѫ кpытыкѧ! :)
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Re:

Postby Bendek » 2012-05-29, 14:14

Oleksij wrote:I think it's a stupid idea. Latin alphabet is used by the majority in the world, so there's no need to switch from Latin to Cyrillic. I daresay the languages using the Cyrillic alphabet should switch from Cyrillic to Latin.


I do not agree with both.
1- Cyryllic is used by Russia and others and there is no need to change anything. Why to adjust to "the rest of the world"? It is enough of adjustment done by Slavian countries especially to Western world. I'm asking - why for? They lost a lot of their culture...Is West better than East? No.
2- By the way Cyrillic is very nice and pleasant alphabet. Though Poland never was using cyrillic so there is either no need for Polish to switch.
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Milya0 » 2012-06-02, 20:41

@Bendek: Don't forget about the network effect: the more languages use the same script, the more useful it becomes - you can learn more languages without needing to switch the alphabet.
Qroo₃₁ kaa₄ cro₂ kraa₃ kaa₄ qo₄₁ cra₄₁ ka₄ qoo₄₂ krá₄₂.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Bendek » 2012-06-03, 3:01

I still believe its not needed. Poland is a great country with its own tradition, but is all the time under influence of others/ or it was Russia, or it is USA, or Germany. Seems that Polish people like to be like monkeys that do all what others do. This only leads to bad things, and to loosing its own language, style tradition etc.
Then some will say to replace Polish with English and to make Poland 51th state of America. :finger: :blah: tfo
All Polish should be happy with your own language character not to waste it with modernizing it. Polish language (and culture, law) is actually very wasted by Western influences. I do not see it a good idea to adjust own language just for sake of letting others to learn it. Polish and Russian and all other Slavian languages are hard and Cirrilic makes it hard more, but makes it unique and very amazing. (I love cirillic) But i dont see a need to change something that worked fine for many years.

I know that for Ukrainian and Russian people it would make it easier to learn. Somehow it makes this idea attractive. This even makes it attractive, to make Polish language separated from other European languages and make it very independent. But still it s a big change for those who are Polish. Unless you like to use Cirillic to learn only, if this helps you to learn other language, then its ok.
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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby JakubikF » 2012-06-03, 21:23

Bendek, don't you think the whole thread above is just a nice game like "what if..." or "let's play with alphabet(s)"? No-one postulates to change Polish alphabet to Cyrilic. I think that some of us, those who have posted here or have been reading the thread with great interest, simply, basing on their knowledge and interests wanted to play with. I like Cyrillic very much and I claim that this alphabet is much better suited to Slavonic languages than the-universe-knows-how altered Latin alphabet. However it does not mean such an invention like Cyrillic for Polish does not have many disadvantages (see ą, ę, ź, ś etc.). Nevertheless, it is still great to use your mind and invent something completely new, based on one's knowledge about Cyrillic and language skills, in many cases, unique and personal.

Considering tengwar as an alphabetic system, does it mean we want to change any alphabet to tengwar or just have some fun like J.R.R Tolkien did? :)

Kind regards to you Bendek.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Ѯэна » 2013-09-13, 23:27

My proposition is:
a - а
ia (after consonant), ja (after vowel) - я
ą - ѫ
ią (after consonant), ją (after vowel) - ѭ
b - б
c (if spoken as [ts]) - ц
c (if spoken as c), ć - чь
cz - ч
d - д
dz - дз
dź (and dz if spoken as dź)- джь
dż - дж
e - э
ie (after consonant), je (after vowel) - е
ę - ѧ
ię (after consonant), ję (after vowel) - ѩ
f - ф
g - г
h – хъ
ch - х
i - и
j - й
k – к
ks (if not changed to kś in other forms of the word), x – ѯ
ks (if changed) - кс
l - л
ł - ў
m - м
n - н
ń (if next letter is other than "i") - нь
o - о
io (after consonant), jo (after vowel) - ё
ó – „у” with accent
ió (after consonant), jó (after vowel) – ю́
p - п
q (in words from other language) - къ
r - р
rz - ръ
s - с
ś (and s if spoken as ś) - шь
sz - ш
szcz - щ
ść (and śc if spoken as ść) - щь
t - т
u - у
iu (after consonant), ju (after vowel) - ю
v (from other languages) - въ
w - в
y - ы
z - з
ź (and z if spoken as ź) - жь
ż - ж

Examples:
Ziemia - жeмя
Zjeść - зeщь
Rzeka - ръэка
Tekst - тэкст
tekstylia - тэѯтыля
gęś - гѧшь

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Ѯэна » 2013-09-14, 14:08

Why чь, чя instead of ць, ця or тя, ть?
Poles pronounce "ć" like iotated "cz" (english "ch"). It isn't iotated "c".
there are words In polish language:
tiamina (vitamin B1) - тямина
policja (police) - полиця
ciastko (cookie) - чястко
The same arguments for шь and жь

No changes for "ń" because it is iotated "n".

Why хъ? The хъ, къ etc. are used in other languages for strange phonemes. We don't need the ґ. The same argument for "rz".
Why ръ? "rz" is always derivative form of "r". It is pronounced always hard. There aren't iotated form.

Why yuses? Yuses were present in old russian language and they were pronounced like "ą" and "ę". Polish language has "ą" and "ę" at the moment. Yuses can be used as the same phonemes.

Why ў for "ł"? Polish ł is more similar to english "w" than russian "л". Russian "л" is more similar to english "black L".

My version uses only standard russian cyrillic letters and yuses (and ѯ to short the notation of frequent "ks"). ъ is used only for "strange" polish phonemes.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-14, 14:34

Ѯэна wrote:Why хъ? The хъ, къ etc. are used in other languages for strange phonemes. We don't need the ґ. The same argument for "rz".
Why ръ? "rz" is always derivative form of "r". It is pronounced always hard. There aren't iotated form.
I don't see why we need хъ and ръ, since there is no tradition of writing either in Slavic languages, and they would be merely etymological. Are there a lot of homophones?
Why ў for "ł"? Polish ł is more similar to english "w" than russian "л". Russian "л" is more similar to english "black L".
It's better known as dark L.
My version uses only standard russian cyrillic letters and yuses (and ѯ to short the notation of frequent "ks"). ъ is used only for "strange" polish phonemes.
I don't think we need a special letter for one cluster that's not even that common when <кс> works fine for many other languages.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Ѯэна » 2013-09-15, 19:14

"Are there a lot of homophones?"
Regarding "rz", it also can be written as жъ. Next step will be removing of the "ъ". The "rz" also is known in Czech (as "ř"). I don't know other languages with this phoneme. Gorals pronounce "rz" differently than "ż".

Regarding "ѯ" - I prefer short forms. Like "я" instead of "иа". Our language is different than other Slavic languages. We need yuses and our notation doesn't need be identical with other. Xi ( ѯ) was removed in other languages in the same time with yuses (yuses: about 1700 year except of romanian - 1860 - and bulagrian - 1945). Xi was removed in 1708. Our phonemes are similar to old slavic (except of "rz") and the alphabet also should be similar to it.

Regarding "dark L" - Yes, it is my mistake. Should be dark, not black.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-20, 18:31

Ѯэна wrote:Regarding "rz", it also can be written as жъ. Next step will be removing of the "ъ". The "rz" also is known in Czech (as "ř"). I don't know other languages with this phoneme. Gorals pronounce "rz" differently than "ż".
In Czech the sound is still distinct. It's not in standard Polish, so I don't see the need for a special letter to accommodate a small number of speakers of one dialect.
Regarding "ѯ" - I prefer short forms. Like "я" instead of "иа". Our language is different than other Slavic languages. We need yuses and our notation doesn't need be identical with other. Xi ( ѯ) was removed in other languages in the same time with yuses (yuses: about 1700 year except of romanian - 1860 - and bulagrian - 1945). Xi was removed in 1708. Our phonemes are similar to old slavic (except of "rz") and the alphabet also should be similar to it.
You need yuses because there is no other way to write nasal vowels in Cyrillic, and they were historically used for that purpose, so it makes sense to revive them. But not only is <ѯ> a letter no other Slavic language uses, it serves no purpose. It isn't even etymological since Polish writes <ks>, so I don't see the point.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Ѯэна » 2013-09-21, 15:22

In the past, Poles used "x" instead "ks". The "x" was removed in 19th century.

Cite from the polish wikipedia: Do XIX wieku litera x była literą alfabetu polskiego na równi z pozostałymi literami, stosowana zarówno w zapożyczeniach, jak i wyrazach rodzimych (np. xięstwo), do dziś zachowała się w nazwiskach (np. Axentowicz, Jaxa, Koxowski, Mixtacki, Rexemowski, Xiężopolski[1][2]) i skrótach (x. = ksiądz, książę)"

Translation:
The letter <x> was polish letter on a par with the rest of the letters used in both loanwords and native words (for example: xięstwo) till 19th century. It is STILL preserved in the surnames (for example: Axentowicz, Jaxa, Koxowski, Mixtacki, Rexemowski, Xiężopolski. It is also presented in abbreviations (for exapmle: "x." means Ksiądz/english: Priest)

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/X

In the same manner: We don't need cyrillic letters. Poles write <s>, not <с>...
The <ѯ> is equivalent of historical <x>. Poles more and more often use the "x" in 21th century. It is present in new names, in names of companies. Poles also more often write "xero", "index", "Xymena", "expresowe" instead of "ksero" (means: a photocopy), "indeks", "Ksymena" (name: Ximen), "ekspresowe". If you want shorten "rz" to <ж>, why do you not want to short "ks" to <ѯ>?

The name "Xymena" is currently more and more written by "X" instead of "Ks". It was written by "X" in the past. Poles like short forms... Why Poles return to "X" in names now? Because the polish law hasn't denied "X" in names since 2008. I also have returned to "X" in my name (also in identity card), it is more easy for foreigners and for me.
Last edited by Ѯэна on 2013-09-21, 22:46, edited 3 times in total.


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