Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Kiesiu
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Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Kiesiu » 2005-10-27, 20:43

Recently I have found a very interesting project of adopting cyrylic alphabet for Polish language. Author of this project is Marek Stępień.
It is based mainly on Ukrainian and Serbian cyrylic alphabet. There are also differences between rz/ż, u/ó, and h/ch!

An example:
A niechaj narodowie wżdy postronni znają, iż Polacy nie gęsi, iż swój język mają.
А њехај народовье вжди постронњі знајѫ, іж Пољаци ње гѧсьі, іж свөј јѧзик мајѫ.

Quite interesting :D For me at least ;)

Here is a link for reference (Polish only!):
http://www.marcoos.zwm.punkt.pl/stuff/cyrylica.html
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Postby tomasz » 2005-10-27, 21:23

I've heard of this before. I also heard something about part of southern Poland that uses the Ukrainian cyrillic alphabet, but Polish words (I don't know how true this is though).

I read the article though, and it's VERY intriging. However, I found it to be somewhat complicated. If Poland were to adopt it, it would be very confusing. So, I have created a more phoenetic version based mostly on Russian & Ukrainian. I'll post it on another post.
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Postby tomasz » 2005-10-27, 23:47

Polski Цырылица
A a - А а
Ą ą - Ą ą
B b - Б б
C c - Ц ц
Ć ć, Cz, Ci- Ч ч
Ch ch - Х х
D d - Д д
E e - Е е
Ę ę - Ę ę
F f - Ф ф
G g - Г г
H h - Ґ ґ
I i - И и
J j - J j
K k - К к
L l - Л л
Ł ł - Љ љ
M m - М м
N n - Н н
Ń ń - Й й
O o - О о
Ó ó - ------
P p - П п
R r - Р р
S s - С с
Ś ś - Ш ш
T t - Т т
U u - У у
W w - В в
Y y - Ы ы
Z z - З з
Ż ż - Ж ж
Ź ź - Ж ж
Dzi - Ю ю
i (palatilized)- Ь ь
aj - Й й
ej - Я я
oj/ój - Ё ё

Dz - Дз дз
Dż - Ю ю
Dzi(dzisiaj) - Юи юи
Dzi(dziadek) - Ю ю
Rz - Ж ж
Ch - Х х
Ci(Cimoszewicz) - Чи
i (palatilized) - Ь ь
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Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2005-10-28, 14:57

I would find this alphabet much better, because it's more logical:


A a - А а
Ą ą - Ą ą
B b - Б б
C c - Ц ц
Ch ch - Х х
Cz cz - Ч ч
Ć ć - Чь чь
D d - Д д
Dż dż - Дж дж
Dź dź - Джь джь
(J)e (j)e - Е е*
Ę ę - Ę ę
F f - Ф ф
G g - Г г
H h - Х х
I i - И и
J j - Й й
K k - К к
L l - Л л
Ł ł - Ў ў
M m - М м
N n - Н н
Ń ń - Њ њ
O o - О о
Ó ó - Ó ó
P p - П п
R r - Р р
Rz rz - Ж ж
S s - С с
Sz sz - Ш ш
Szcz szcz - Щ щ
Ś ś - Шь шь
T t - Т т
U u - У у
W w - В в
Y y - Ы ы
Z z - З з
Ż ż - Ж ж
Ź ź - Жь жь
ia - я*
ie - е*
e - э
io - ё*
iu - ю*



* = these letters are only used at the beginning of a word and after palatal(ized) vowels. For example:

być = бычь
but:

cia, cie, ci, cio, ciu, cią, cię ->
чя, чe, чи, чё, чю, чьą, чьę

cza, cze, czo, czu, czy, czą, czę
чa, чэ, чo, чу, чы, чą, чę

At the beginning of a Wort, you can use palatalized vowels too; "e" is always read "je" at the beginning of a word, "э" always like "e"



In my opinion you should keep writing with latin letters, but if you had to use cyrillic letters, you should have this orthography ;)

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Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2005-10-28, 15:06

A niechaj narodowie wżdy postronni znają, iż Polacy nie gęsi, iż swój język mają.
А нехай народове вжды постронни знайą, иж
Полацы не гęши, іж свóй йęзык майą.

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Postby Oleksij » 2005-10-28, 18:44

I think it's a stupid idea. Latin alphabet is used by the majority in the world, so there's no need to switch from Latin to Cyrillic. I daresay the languages using the Cyrillic alphabet should switch from Cyrillic to Latin.
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Postby tomasz » 2005-10-28, 20:17

Gruszka, now that I see your version of the alphabet, I can say I like it more than mine. It does make more sense. The only question now is: Is the Polish government really thinking about this, or is this just someone's pet-project?

And as for all cyrillic-using countries switching to Latin, I think that's dumb. Cyrillic makes that language more unique, in my opinion.
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Postby mistrz » 2005-10-28, 20:23

And I think that no one should switch from one alphabet into another. Alphabet is a part of culture and long tradition and in my opinion cyryllic alphabet in some cases can't be replaced by latin. What is more, this alphabet is widely spread and there is no need for doing such thing.

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Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2005-10-28, 20:41

tomasz wrote:Gruszka, now that I see your version of the alphabet, I can say I like it more than mine. It does make more sense. The only question now is: Is the Polish government really thinking about this, or is this just someone's pet-project?

And as for all cyrillic-using countries switching to Latin, I think that's dumb. Cyrillic makes that language more unique, in my opinion.



I don't think, that someone in Poland is really thinking about it. You just have to think of the new national-conservative government, which does not seem to like Russia at all, so its pretty unlikely.

Maybe it's only an idea of some weird confused freaks :wink:



Nie uwazam, ze ktos w Polsce prawie o tym mysli. Musisz tylko myslec o nowej polskiej wladzie, ktora w ogule nie lubi rosyjnkow, dlatego to nie prawdopodobne.

Tylko jedna pytania:
Mozna wlasciwie jeszcze rozumiec co ja napisalem mimo ze zrobilem tyle blady? 8)

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Postby tomasz » 2005-10-28, 20:51

You just have to think of the new national-conservative government, which does not seem to like Russia at all, so its pretty unlikely.


Tak, to prawda. Jednak ja lubię Rosję, więc myślę, że to byłby ciekawy.
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Postby Kiesiu » 2005-10-28, 21:00

I think some of you didn't understand what for I post the information about this project here. It's just an interesting, in my opinion, one men project. No one in Poland want to switch alphabets from Latin to Cyrillic.

In my opinion it's quite interesting how it could be if Polish language use Cyrillic alphabet. This one proposed by Marek Stępień.

BTW today I saw that in IE two character in Cyrillic (ą and ę) are not well displayed.

If I should choose form these 2 alphabets proposed by tomasz and Gruszka I will choose the second one. But I think that it's more complicated than that about which I write in my post ;)
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Postby Kiesiu » 2005-10-28, 21:20

Gruszka wrote:Nie uważam, że ktoś w Polsce [s]prawie[/s]poważnie o tym myśli. [s]Musisz [/s] Pomyśl tylko [s]mysleć[/s] o nowej polskiej władz[s]ie[/s]y, która w ogóle nie lubi [s]rosyjnkow[/s]Rosjan. Dlatego jest to nieprawdopodobne.

Tylko jedn[s]a[/s]o pytani[s]a[/s]e:
Można właściwie jeszcze zrozumiec co ja napisałem mimo że zrobiłem tyle bł[s]a[/s]ęd[s]y[/s]ów?


You didn't make many errors. In fact there are only a few. I change a part of text because in that way it sounds better to me :)

And I don't think that new Polish goverment doesn't like Russians. However I didn't vote for them 8)
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Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2005-10-28, 22:01

Kiesiu wrote:
Gruszka wrote:Nie uważam, że ktoś w Polsce [s]prawie[/s]poważnie o tym myśli. [s]Musisz [/s] Pomyśl tylko [s]mysleć[/s] o nowej polskiej władz[s]ie[/s]y, która w ogóle nie lubi [s]rosyjnkow[/s]Rosjan. Dlatego jest to nieprawdopodobne.

Tylko jedn[s]a[/s]o pytani[s]a[/s]e:
Można właściwie jeszcze zrozumiec co ja napisałem mimo że zrobiłem tyle bł[s]a[/s]ęd[s]y[/s]ów?


You didn't make many errors. In fact there are only a few. I change a part of text because in that way it sounds better to me :)

And I don't think that new Polish goverment doesn't like Russians. However I didn't vote for them 8)



Is there always a genitive after "tyle"?

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Postby arti » 2005-10-28, 22:50

Gruszka wrote:Is there always a genitive after "tyle"?

Yes, it seems that there is always genitive after "tyle".
tyle czasu... tyle miłości... tyle pracy... :)

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Postby Oleksij » 2005-10-29, 13:04

And I think that no one should switch from one alphabet into another. Alphabet is a part of culture and long tradition and in my opinion cyryllic alphabet in some cases can't be replaced by latin. What is more, this alphabet is widely spread and there is no need for doing such thing.

Mistrz, you have no idea, because of not being from a "Cyrillic background", how much the alphabet actually discourages other people from the language and culture.
Let me give you an example. In Ireland no one, apparently, can pronounce my second name properly.
If Ukrainian was using a Latin alphabet, that'd be an advantage for both sides.
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Postby Cisza » 2005-10-31, 9:49

I completely disagree.

I think it's possible for Byelorussian language to be switched from Cyrillic to Latin (and they do have Latin alfabet for their language, which is not in official use now), but not for Ukrainian of Russian - it would look unnaturally, you should introduce some additional character combinations which would be mixed up (like in Polish word "zmarznąć", but in Polish it's a rare exception, and in Russian or Ukrainian it would be a quite common case!).

Yes, I myself face some disadvantages caused by usage of Cyrillic (for example, Russian government decided to change language used in foreign passports from French to English, so the spelling of my first name was changed too, and sometimes I should prove abroad that I'm the same man as before :D ). But I think the people in Ireland who are not able to read your name correctly read it written with Latin letters? If so, the switching you mentioned won't help.
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Postby Oleksij » 2005-10-31, 18:15

Why to use letter combinations if you could use "š" and "č" etc?
Still, I think that using Latin script at least paralelly, would make it more comfortable.
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Postby Cisza » 2005-11-03, 13:00

I'm afraid there will be too many diacritic signs.
Don't forget about the nesessity to mark soft sounds.
In Polish it is realized in a very elegant way, but Poles have a limited number of consonants that could be softened in final position or before other consonants. Czechs are not so lucky, for example, so they are not able to use Polish-style marks above d and t.

How to tell, for example, sound in the Russian word "пианино" (piano), "пьяный" (drunk) and "пятка" (heel), if we adopt the Polish way to mark soft signs (pianino, pianyj, piatka)? If we would use the Croatian way and place j instead of i in such cases, there will be some other complications.

Maybe it could be useful to have an official parallel system to use for foreign documents, international telegrams or something like that, which should not be changed voluntary by government etc., I can agree with this.

Well, I see the Polish forum is not a proper place for a discussion like this, so take my apologies please.
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Postby Oleksij » 2005-11-03, 19:54

What about puting "~" over the softened vowels?
I think it looks quite elegant. Another problem is how to interpret "я" and "ю". I mean, using "ja" and "ju" looks ok to me too, but then, which letter to use at the end of masculine adjectives, finishing in "й"? "j" doesn't look good in that position.
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Postby JakubikF » 2008-01-04, 23:40

A co powiedzielibyście na taką propozycję zapisu języka polskiego cyrylicą. Proszę mnie nie linczować, jeśli nie ma to zupełnie sensu. Bazowałem głównie na cyrylicy serbskiej. Dlaczego? Mam wrażenie, które nie jest poparte naukową wiedzą, że dźwięki występujące w tym języku są w dużej mierze podobne do tych występujących w polszczyźnie. Zastosowanie niektórych liter dla dźwięków takich jak dz, dź czy dż jest dosyć klarowne. Mam co prawda niesmak w kwestii, iż literę "ć" odwzorowałem jako "ћ" natomiast ś już jako сь. Niestety nie została chyba jeszcze wymyślona osobna litera w cyrylicy dla tego dźwięku. Może należałoby ją wprowadzić tak jak dokonano to z dźwiękiem ć?

A-А а
Ą-Ą ą
B-Б б
C-Ц ц
Ć-Ћ ћ
D-Д д
E-Е е
Ę-Ę ę
F-Ф ф
G-Г г
H-Х х
I-И и
J-Й й
K-К к
L-Љ љ
Ł-Л л
M-М м
N-Н н
Ń-Њ њ
O-О о
Ó-Ó ó
P-П п
R-Р р
S-С с
Ś-Сь сь
T-Т т
U-У у
W-В в
Y-Ы ы
Z-З з
Ż-Ж ж
Ź-Зь зь
Dz-Ђ ђ
Dż-Џ џ
Dź-Ђь ђь
Sz-Ш ш
Cz-Ч ч
Szcz-Щ щ
ść-Щь щь
Ch- --- (albo pominąć, a jeśli nie to nie mam pomysłu na zapis tego dwuznaku)
Rz-Р р z daszkiem jak w ”č”

Zrezygnowałem także z liter "ja" i "ju" uznając, że wprowadzają jedynie dodatkowy zamęt. Wydaje mi się, że łatwiej byłoby zaakceptować zapis йа i йу. Ewentualnie można by zastosować literę "j".


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