Questions on Basque

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crush
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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby crush » 2016-01-10, 13:45

Now i'm stuck trying to translate a thought into Basque, how would you say "the city I went to"? "Joan nintzen hiria"? That doesn't feel quite right.
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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-01-17, 15:47

Hi!

About your doubts:

inguruko norbait interesatuta egon ezkero


ezkero: expresses a conditional: in case somebody is interested...


gida gisa erabili ahal izateko


What the speaker means is: "so that people can use it as a guide", hence the "ahal".
It's what we call a nominalization. In Basque, those are very flexible, and it is not always evident who is the subject


hasiera baten - i'm not sure why baten is in noren?


It's not noren, but Non. It's the colloquial contraction of "hasiera batean"

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-01-17, 15:53

Now i'm stuck trying to translate a thought into Basque, how would you say "the city I went to"? "Joan nintzen hiria"? That doesn't feel quite right.


Yep, that is correct. And you are right: it does not feel quit right! Basque rather avoids prepositional subordinates as much as possible, and tends to build the speech always in a way that only subject or direct complements get into relative sentences (etorri den gizona etc).... Some people say it is a fascinating subject, as it represents how thinking in a language forces you to articulate your thought in a different way.

.... if you ask me, this is just a bug in Basque :D

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby crush » 2016-01-21, 4:13

Thanks for the explanations, arabarra. So in Basque would you just avoid saying something like "The city we went to last year was expensive"? Perhaps "Iaz hiri garesti batera joan ginen" (we went to an expensive city last year, not sure if expensive can be used the same way in Basque). I think the sentence i was trying to say was "The city i went to didn't speak Catalan."
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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-02-26, 8:07

sorry for the incredibly late delay in aswering!

If the sentence is so short as "The city I went to didn't speak Catalan.", then there is no problem in using this at-first-wrong-sounding-concordance: "Joan nintzen hirian ez zuten katalaneraz hitzegiten.

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby crush » 2016-03-18, 13:33

In any case, thanks for the reply :) I've found myself trying to get around this sort of situation a few times now, maybe i should stop talking about places i've been to so much :P
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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-03-20, 20:59

:D

well, don't get discouraged... the truth is, when speaking Basque in the practice, one does not really miss these constructions. Only when one needs to translate from another language, but really, it comes quite natural to just let the speech organize itself along different lines.

I can imagine that in my own words in a real conversation, I would say:
"Ba, ni ihaz <halako ta zelako> hirira joan ninduan, ta hor ez zuan katalan tutik ere aditzen"

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby crush » 2016-04-04, 4:38

Thanks :)

Next question, using the -ta form to make an adjective (nekatuta nago, argiak piztuta daude, etc.), can you use this -ta form to modify a noun? In that case do you decline them? Eg. "Argi piztutak berdeak dira." Or would a phrase like "piztuta dauden argiak (politak dira)" fit better?
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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-06, 20:08

"Argi piztutak berdeak dira." Or would a phrase like "piztuta dauden argiak (politak dira)" fit better?


"Argi piztutak berdeak dira." is totally incorrect, sounds very very bad. The -ta ending converts the word into and adverb, and cannot be used as a noun. You have two options:

1) use the true participe -A: "Argi piztuak berdeak dira."
This is correct, but does not sound very natural in this sentence.

2) add -KO after -TA to get and adjective that can be nominalized:
"piztutako argiak berdeak dira"
This would be the most normal way.

"piztuta dauden argiak (politak dira)" is also correct, just longer that "piztutako argiak". You probably would only use that form if you are interested for some reason in making the auxiliary verb explicit.

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby crush » 2016-04-16, 5:02

Thanks, i hadn't even thought about adding the -ko suffix afterwards. That definitely looks and sounds a lot better to me (though i still don't have much of an ear for Basque).

Today i came across another sentence which threw me off:
Roma inoiz bisitatu baldin baduzu, Koliseoa ikusia izan behar duzu.
The order of "ikusia izan behar duzu" seems odd to me, i would've thought that izan would go after behar and not after ikusia. On a side note, would there be much/any change in meaning to use "ikusi" instead of "ikusia" here?
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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-17, 15:46

Hi Crush,

that question already showed in this very thread :) .

I paste it here again. Then the sentence was "asko ikusi dut/asko ikusia naiz", but it's basically the same.


%---------------------------------------------------------
Now, -a ending attached to a verb (izana, joana)

As Lowena says, it is a not so easy to master it. The basics does sound clear, but when this playful particle deploys its full potential it might be difficult to keep track of...

In this case, I think you are mixing two different uses of the -a. In the sentence:

"Ez zuen nahi izan bere koadroa Espainian erakutsia izaterik."


the use of the -a is rather neutral, meaning that there is no alternative to build the sentence if you want that the subordinate sentence is in the passive voice. There is no, lets say, "linguistic plus", no hidden detail. The speaker is just narrating objectively

In the other sentence,

Asko ikusia naiz, geroztik, nire bizitza luzean.
I have seen a lot, since then, in my long life.


there is some "extra". I'll try to explain: the neutral way of building this sentence would be:

"asko ikusi dut, geroztik, nire bizitza luzean"

The construction "asko ikusia naiz" is correct (and follows the lines Lowena described), but it sounds archaic, and would not be used for everyday life situations: "ogia erosia naiz", well it's probably correct, but that's not the way you tell your mother that you just came home with bread for the day. You'd use "ogia erosi dut".

Sounds obscure? guess so... hm.. if I was to translate into English the spin that this naughty -a is bringing into the sentence, I'd probably go for something like: "I'm a guy that..."

Asko ikusia naiz, geroztik, nire bizitza luzean.
... I'm a guy that has seen a lot of things in his long life...

Not exactly, though... my english translation would be an extreme form of the intent of the Basque sentence. What I mean is that the construction :

Asko ikusia naiz, geroztik, nire bizitza luzean.

puts the accent on "I" (the subject of naiz), so the speaker wants the attention on himself, while

Asko ikusi dut, geroztik, nire bizitza luzean.


is more neutral, and the weight of the sentence can be focused on "asko".

:para: hope it helped...

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-22, 7:11

... in case you know Spanish, I'll try to translate the nuances of the different forms...
Koliseoa ikusi dut: he visto el Coliseo
Koliseoa ikusia dut: tengo visto el Coliseo
Koliseoa ikusia naiz: Yo soy un tío que ha visto el Coliseo

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby crush » 2016-04-25, 5:36

Thanks, I remember asking the question about ikusia before, my main question was about the placement of izan. "ikusia izan behar duzu" vs "ikusia behar izan duzi". Is it similar to "tienes que haber visto" vs "has tenido que ver"?

Today I came across another sentence that tripped me up:
Hobe zenuke ohetik jaiki, dutxatu eta probetxugarria zaizun zerbait egingo bazenu.
Is "hobe zenuke" a phrase meaning something like "you would be better (off)"? I'm not sure why some verbs don't have the ko/go suffix, does only the last verb need it? "you'd do better if you got out of bed, showered, and did something good for you"

And I don't understand what the use of "ere" means here:
sosik ez zaizu falta, gastatu ere, ez duzu asko gastatzen eta!
..you're not short on cash, ..., since you don't spend much!

And here, what is "egingo" doing?
zer pentsatuko zenuke besteak zuri gauza bera egingo balizu?
..what would you think if someone else.. made the thing theirs? (took that thing from you?)
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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-25, 9:01

Thanks, I remember asking the question about ikusia before, my main question was about the placement of izan. "ikusia izan behar duzu" vs "ikusia behar izan duzi". Is it similar to "tienes que haber visto" vs "has tenido que ver"?


oh, I see. Well, "ikusia behar izan duzu" does not really exist. :)

Now, "behar" can mean likelihood or obligation, so that the meaning will depend on the context. Assuming that we mean "likelihood", the two options that can be use

"ikusia izan behar duzu" : you're probably a guy that has seen.... (here the obligation meaning do not apply)
"ikusi behar izan duzu" : you have probably seen

Ikusia behar izan duzu would be a funny construction: it implies that the guy is somebody that has seen a lot of things... but then stopped having seen them. He needs to have "unseen" those things for the sentence to make any sense... :hmm:

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-25, 9:03

Hobe zenuke ohetik jaiki, dutxatu eta probetxugarria zaizun zerbait egingo bazenu.
Is "hobe zenuke" a phrase meaning something like "you would be better (off)"? I'm not sure why some verbs don't have the ko/go suffix, does only the last verb need it? "you'd do better if you got out of bed, showered, and did something good for you"


That's correct. Repeating the -ko/go is rather weary, so these constructions only put it at the ending verb.

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-25, 9:05

And here, what is "egingo" doing?
zer pentsatuko zenuke besteak zuri gauza bera egingo balizu?
..what would you think if someone else.. made the thing theirs? (took that thing from you?)


"egingo" is just doing its job :)

You need it to construct condicional sentences:
..what would you think if someone else would make the same thing to you?

(not "made the thing theirs", by the way: it's "gauza bera", not "gauza berea")

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-25, 9:08

And I don't understand what the use of "ere" means here:
sosik ez zaizu falta, gastatu ere, ez duzu asko gastatzen eta!
..you're not short on cash, ..., since you don't spend much!


It's just a way of talking. Maybe a translation of the meaning could be something like this:

..you're not short on cash. When it comes to spending... you don't really spend much, do you?

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby crush » 2016-04-27, 4:46

arabarra wrote:
And here, what is "egingo" doing?
zer pentsatuko zenuke besteak zuri gauza bera egingo balizu?
..what would you think if someone else.. made the thing theirs? (took that thing from you?)


"egingo" is just doing its job :)

You need it to construct condicional sentences:
..what would you think if someone else would make the same thing to you?

(not "made the thing theirs", by the way: it's "gauza bera", not "gauza berea")

Ah, thanks, now I feel silly :oops:

The next question:
"zure lagunak zaren bezala maite zaitu"
What is "zaren"? At first I thought it was some variation of zure, but now I wonder if it's not just zara with the -en ending: "your friend, like you (are?), loves you." I would've expected zuk.

And another sentence:
"Bizitza ez da gelditu gabe lanean jardutea?"
The gabe here is throwing me off, I think the basic meaning of the sentence is along the lines of "life won't stop if you don't work", but I can't piece it together. My literal translation as I understand it is "Life isn't without stopping working".

Lastly, I keep seeing this word xamar, the dictionary says it means blusón, but that doesn't make sense in context, it seems more like "asko".
-xelebre xamar zabiltza
-maitea ere aspertu xamar duzu
-oldartsu xamarra zara
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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-27, 6:49

"zure lagunak zaren bezala maite zaitu"
What is "zaren"? At first I thought it was some variation of zure, but now I wonder if it's not just zara with the -en ending: "your friend, like you (are?), loves you." I would've expected zuk.


yep. You need the ending -en to use "bezala": your friend loves you the way you are.

"zuk" would be (very :) ) incorrect, as "zu" it's not the ergative subject of the action. "zure laguna" is the one that loves, and he becomes a -k for this.

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Re: Questions on Basque

Postby arabarra » 2016-04-27, 6:54

And another sentence:
"Bizitza ez da gelditu gabe lanean jardutea?"
The gabe here is throwing me off, I think the basic meaning of the sentence is along the lines of "life won't stop if you don't work", but I can't piece it together. My literal translation as I understand it is "Life isn't without stopping working".


no, you have to chop the sentence in different pieces. Look at the sentence this way:

[Bizitza] [ez da] [gelditu gabe lanean jardutea?]

then you'd translate it as:

[Life] [is not] [working without stopping]

The third part is a nominalized verb: "lanean jardutea" is the core, and "gelditu gabe" is a complement to "lanean jardutea", not to "ez da", which is in an upper level of the syntactic decomposition.


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