Dunbots' Basque Questions

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-18, 19:30

I meant to say "Yes, that website does need to have verb tables"


a, noski, bale. "Du" laguntzaileak ("ditu"-ren partez) despistatu ninduen.

It also confused me that the sentence (other than the du/ditu thing)...could actually sound better in partitive, I think:

Bai, badu webgune horrek aditz-taularik eduki behar!

but bear in mind that with this word ordering the sentence sounds very intense.

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-18, 19:45

... hm, my own sentence still sounds a little too much...

I guess that the construction "badu [] beharrik" only works really natural with very short sentences, for instance:

"horrek badu andre baten beharrik!"

Gee, this guy badly needs a woman!

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-18, 21:08

What do you think the best way to say it would be? Maybe I should just remove the ba- prefix.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-18, 23:13

I think, there is no "best" way: it depends on the intensity you want to convey.

The neutral way would be:
Bai, weborri horrek aditz taulak behar ditu.


A slightly more intense form:
Weborri horrek aditz taulak behar ditu bai.
no comma between ditu and bai: They're pronounced like a single word. If you say
Weborri horrek aditz taulak behar ditu, bai.
it's still correct, but the intensity is lost

You can also add intensity with "ba-"
Weborri horrek aditz taulak behar baditu (bai).

The most intense form:
baditu weborri horrek aditz taulak behar.
(but this one sounds a little pedantic)

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-18, 23:23

You can also add intensity with "ba-"
Weborri horrek aditz taulak behar baditu (bai).


When 'ba-' means emphasis and not conditional, doesn't the verb it's attached to go to the front of the sentence? Or else how do you distinguish emphasis there from conditional "if"?

A slightly more intense form:
Weborri horrek aditz taulak behar ditu bai.
no comma between ditu and bai: They're pronounced like a single word.


I didn't know you could do that. :D That sounds useful to know.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-18, 23:40

When 'ba-' means emphasis and not conditional, doesn't the verb it's attached to go to the front of the sentence? Or else how do you distinguish emphasis there from conditional "if"?


You can also do the distinction with the intonation.
Actually, the ba- in the front of the sentence only sounds good if the sentence is short:

-Berandu zatoz!
-Bada egia...

-You're late!
-it's certainly true.../ ok, it's true/ indeed I do.

In general, when you open a sentence with "Ba-", it's because there is some context information, and the ba- sentence is short because it skips repeating pieces informations already known to the listener.

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-18, 23:48

I see. The Ikasten course teaches that with an emphasizing 'ba-' the verb/auxiliary moves to the front of the sentence. Thanks for the correction!

I was speculating about something. "Bost" is the Batua version (and of some dialects) of the word meaning "five", and "bortz" is another (dialectal) version. Is there or has there ever been evidence of such a word as "zosti" for "zortzi" (meaning "eight")? I have seen the 'rtz' <> 'st' variation in other words, but maybe since "zortzi" ends in a vowel it doesn't, or maybe "zortzi" and "bortz" have different underlying morphemes or something.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-19, 3:13

:? hm... don't know. I only know examples of 'rtz' <> 'st' variation in which words that end in "-rtz" in eastern dialects take the ending "-st" in western dialects.

But the ending "-rtz" in western dialects mutating into "-st" in eastern dialects... well, that'd be something new.

My guess would be that "bost/bortz" does not share any root with "zortzi".

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-20, 6:20

OK. That was a stupid question. :P

How would you literally say "Don't judge a book by its cover" in Basque? My dictionary gives the following example:

You can't judge people from their appearance.
Ezin duzu jendea itxurari begiratua juzgatu.


Using that example, I'd think it might be something like:

"Ez juzgatu liburu bat azalari begiratua."

I can't find any example of a construction like this in use, however.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-20, 13:45

To me, the most natural way sounds like:

"Etzazu liburuA azalari begiratuTA juzka."


I mean, you need begiratuTA/begiratuRIK not begiratuA. You could also use -Z

"Etzazu liburuA azalari begiratuZ juzka."

But the -TA construction is very intuitive, I think. All in all the -TA ending is probably nothing else than a "eta" sticked to the preceding verb

"Etzazu liburuA azalari begiratuTA juzka." ~ "Etzazu liburuA azalari begiratu ETA juzka."
Don't look at the cover AND (then) judge the book.

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-20, 23:28

Eskerrik asko. I've never really understood the meaning or use of the '-ta' suffix. I should try to learn more about it.

My grammar says this:

Rather than -(r)ik, the Guipuzcoan dialect employs the suffx -ta, a shortened form of the
conjuction eta, to create an equivalent of stative participles: hilda ‘having died’, ikusita
‘having seen’, and emanda ‘having given’ instead of hilik, ikusirik, and emanik.


So you're right. :)
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-21, 6:33

Rather than -(r)ik, the Guipuzcoan dialect employs the suffx -ta


not only Gipuzkera. Bizkaierak ere erabiltzen du -TA atzizkia, ta Nafarroan ez da ezezaguna.

The use that your grammar describes is sure right, but it is also used simply with egon. Here an example:

Etxea garbituta, kalera irten ziren.

(After having cleaned the house, they went out)

Etxea garbituta dago.
(the house is clean (because somebody has cleaned it!))
(this sentence may also mean, that there was robbery!)

Etxea garbi dago
The house is clean,

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-27, 6:39

I messaged several Basque speakers on a language exchange site in hopes of finding people I could practice Basque with, and one so far has messaged me back. I am writing here particularly to highlight something I did not know one could do in Basque. He said in one sentence:

Euskara ondo dakien hemen aurkitzen dudan lehenengo pertsona zara.


I didn't know you could use more than one relative clause at a time with the same noun phrase. The first ends with the verb "dakien" and the second with "dudan".

I thought that was a useful thing to know. :D

Also, he said one error I made was saying "ditzadala" instead of "ditzadan". I always thought that the subjunctive used '-la' in everyday speech. Is that not so? He is from Bizkaia, and I don't know much of anything about dialects spoken there, so maybe they use it differently.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-27, 8:52

I didn't know you could use more than one relative clause at a time with the same noun phrase.


Yep, it can be done. Otherwise Basque would be too restrictive... in any case, it only works for short sentences.

always thought that the subjunctive used '-la' in everyday speech.


... there is no much subjunctive in every day speech :-) anyway, you use nominalizations.
In any case, normally the subjunctive needs indeed -n ending. What was the sentence?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-27, 10:10

arabarra wrote:
always thought that the subjunctive used '-la' in everyday speech.


... there is no much subjunctive in every day speech :-) anyway, you use nominalizations.
In any case, normally the subjunctive needs indeed -n ending. What was the sentence?

True. ;) My sentence was as follows:

Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke nik mintzatze-gaitasuna hobe ditzadala?


I wasn't sure whether to use "hobetzea" or "hobetzeko", so that's why I used the subjunctive. I did intend some level of politeness, sense we had never talked and I just usually try to be polite with strangers.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-27, 11:53

Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke nik mintzatze-gaitasuna hobe ditzadala?


That's certainly with -n: "in order for me to..." always ends with -n if you go for the subjunctive.
But in any case you need a singular NOR:

I'd say:
Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke, (nik) (nire) mintzagaitasuna hobe dezadan?

or simply
Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke, nere mintzagaitasuna hobetzeko?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-27, 19:47

... or the most natural sounding construction...

Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke, mintzagaitasuna hobetu nahi dut-ta

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-28, 2:39

arabarra wrote:That's certainly with -n: "in order for me to..." always ends with -n if you go for the subjunctive.
But in any case you need a singular NOR:

I'd say:
Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke, (nik) (nire) mintzagaitasuna hobe dezadan?

or simply
Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke, nere mintzagaitasuna hobetzeko?

I should probably refrain from using the subjunctive. :oops: If I can't use it right, and most people don't use it, there's not much point.

arabarra wrote:... or the most natural sounding construction...

Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke, mintzagaitasuna hobetu nahi dut-ta

Would that be the best? If I were to say that in English I'd think it would sound a bit rude, since you are turning it into a statement and not asking a question.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-28, 3:06

I should probably refrain from using the subjunctive. :oops: If I can't use it right, and most people don't use it, there's not much point.


... the point is having fun while learning it :) . Well, that and writing novels.

Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke, mintzagaitasuna hobetu nahi dut-ta

Would that be the best? If I were to say that in English I'd think it would sound a bit rude, since you are turning it into a statement and not asking a question.


well,

Agian nirekin hitzegin nahiko zenuke, mintzagaitasuna hobetu nahi dut-ta?

then, but don't worry about the politeness. The fact that you use nahi(ko) ZENUKE makes everything sound very formal.

By the way, I didn't comment before, but even if "nahiko zenuke" is probably correct, "nahi zenuke" is probably better in this case. The reason is that "zenuke" here is not doing its "real" syntactical function for potential clauses (in which case you'd use "nahiko" or "nahi izango") but is merely there to introduce formality in the sentence.

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-28, 9:03

arabarra wrote:... the point is having fun while learning it :) . Well, that and writing novels.

I don't particularly find learning the hundreds of forms of the auxiliary verb fun. :lol: Nor am I a good fiction writer, so that is never a goal or interest of mine.

By the way, I didn't comment before, but even if "nahiko zenuke" is probably correct, "nahi zenuke" is probably better in this case. The reason is that "zenuke" here is not doing its "real" syntactical function for potential clauses (in which case you'd use "nahiko" or "nahi izango") but is merely there to introduce formality in the sentence.

What is the difference between using the conditional with '-ko' and without? In the song Kaixo by Urtz, the first line is

Trikitixa dantzatu nahiko nuke


which has the same syntactic use as my sentence, doesn't it?

Standard Basque describes it as the form with '-ko' represents something in the future, whereas the form without is present tense.

Standard Basque wrote:As for the apodosis, the southern dialects employ the future participle of the main verb combined with the present or past conditional of the auxiliary as required by the action’s location in time: etorriko litzateke ‘he would come’, egingo luke ‘he would do it’, etorriko zatekeen ‘he would have come’, egingo zukeen ‘he would have done it’.


Also, how would you say "one of my favorite things" in Basque?
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