Dunbots' Basque Questions

Moderator: arabarra

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-09-20, 6:26

Kaixo dena!

I've seen that it is common practice here to make your own thread for all your questions, so here is mine. :)
I am still a beginner in Basque, but I am very quickly progressing. I am determined to speak and understand Basque fluently, as well as become as Basque as I can be myself.

This question probably doesn't concern me much as a beginner, but I love learning about grammar, so I was hoping someone could help me. In one of my favorite (Basque) songs, Bizitzarekin dantzan by Urtz, I can't figure out what the word "de" in the line "lagunekin ederragoa de mundua" means. Is it just a typo of "den"? Any help? :D

Also, what would my thread's title be in Basque? "Dunbotsaren galde euskarazko"? Eskerrik asko!
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!

xuzu
Posts: 2
Joined: 2010-09-21, 1:57
Country: ES Spain (España)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby xuzu » 2010-09-21, 2:43

Hello again. I see you learn fast, but let me answer your questions and make some small corrections:

Dunbots wrote:Kaixo denoi!
Dunbots wrote:This question probably doesn't concern me much as a beginner, but I love learning about grammar, so I was hoping someone could help me. In one of my favorite (Basque) songs, Bizitzarekin dantzan by Urtz, I can't figure out what the word "de" in the line "lagunekin ederragoa de mundua" means. Is it just a typo of "den"? Any help? :D

I think the "de" must be "da"... "With friends the world is more beautiful"

Dunbots wrote:Also, what would my thread's title be in Basque? "Dunbotsaren galde euskarazko"? Eskerrik asko!

Dunbotsen euskarari buruzko galderak.

With names of people and places you use "-en" or "-ren" for the genitive case. So, "Dunbots' questions" = "Dunbotsen galderak".

To say "about" something you can use the dative case + buruz(ko). In this instance, "euskarari buruzko galderak" = "questions about Basque".

"Galdera" means question, so to make the plural in the absolutive case you just add "k" if the word ends in a vowel. So, "galderak".

I hope this information may help you. Best wishes.

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-09-21, 4:29

Eskerrik asko! You were very helpful.

Two more questions currently:

1. What is the "-ko" that is often attached to words, like "buruzko" in your post, and in a word like "nahiko"? Does it change the meaning at all? I don't mean for verbs, I know with verbs it means the future tense, like in "jango" or "etorriko".

2. What does "denoi" mean? Is it "dena" is a case, or what is it?

I'm just curious, which dialect do you speak? Where are you from?

Gero arte! :)
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!

arabarra
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-09-28, 8:14

Hi Dunbots,

I started to write a reply, but then I realized that Wikipedia, as usual, already has a rather good one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_gra ... ctival_-ko

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-09-29, 4:24

Kaixo arabarra!

What about "denoi" though?

I have another question, from where do words like "dituen" and "diren" come? And what does "duen" mean in this sentence? "Ez daukat buruan zer izen duen."

Eskerrik asko laguntzagatik!
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!

arabarra
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-09-29, 13:01

Kaixo Dunbots,


"denoi¨ is the combination of Dena (all) with the Nori case (more or less, the dative), in plural.

Actually, the declension of the plural admits two degrees of proximity. This applies in theory to all cases,but there are some details one should be aware of when using them, as the meaning difference introduced by the proximity level is different in each case. For instance, in the Nori case, the two degrees would be:
1) denoi (closest proximity degree)
2) denei

The most common use of the closest proximity degree is the inclusion of the speaker in the group refered to in "all". For instance:

Denoi gertatu zaigu.
It has happened to (us) all.

Denei gertatu zaie.
It has happened to all (of them).

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-10-01, 6:42

Thanks, that was a great explanation.

What about my other questions, about "dituen", "diren" and "duen"?

Eskerrik asko, arabarra. :)
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!

arabarra
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-10-05, 8:33

Hi Dunbots,

the -N ending has different meanings in Basque. One of them is the construction of relative clauses:
etorri den gizona -> The man that came in.

the other one is the introduction of indirect interrogative clauses:

ez dakit (ea) gizona etorri den -> I do not know if the man came in.
ez dakit zein gizon etorri den -> I do not know which man came in.
ez dakit gizona noiz etorri den -> I do not know when the man came in.


Do not mix up these sentencens with the completive ones (the verb adds the suffix -(e)la)

Hope it helped!
Arabarra

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-10-09, 6:14

Sweet, it helped a lot. :) Eskerrik asko!

In an effort to express something like "Are you happy/content living at the place you currently live?" in Basque, I came up with this:

Lekura bizi zarela pozik izan zaude?


Actually, I have two separate questions: First, what would that sentence be like with the grammar and syntax corrected, and second, what would be a better way to translate the English sentence, if mine is inadequate? Mila esker!
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!

arabarra
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-10-11, 9:20

Lekura bizi zarela pozik izan zaude?



well, there are some problems in the sentence... the most important one is very fundamental: the difference between relative and completive sentences. In other languages they're introduced with the same kind of particles (by the way, I only know indoeuropean languages, now I am curious, if this is some kind of indoeuropean thing?), but in Basque they are clearly distinguished:

Relative: -(e)N ending
etorri deN gizona lodia da: "the man THAT just came in is fat"

Completive: -(e)LA ending
gizona etorri deLA entzun dut: "I've heard THAT the man just came in

So, it is very important to be aware of this sintactical difference.

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-10-11, 19:14

So... could you answer my questions please? :)

Could you correct my translation, making it grammatically correct, and give your own translation from the English source sentence?
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 19829
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby linguoboy » 2010-10-11, 19:43

arabarra wrote:In other languages they're introduced with the same kind of particles (by the way, I only know indoeuropean languages, now I am curious, if this is some kind of indoeuropean thing?)

No, because it isn't even found in all Indo-European languages. E.g. Standard German:

Der Mann, der gerade hereingekommen ist, ist dick."
"The man that has just come in is fat."

Ich habe gehört, dass der dicke Mann gerade hereingekommen sei.
"I've heard that the fat man has just come in."

Slavic and Celtic languages also have this distinction as well. (E.g. Polish mężczyzna, który jest gruby "the man that is fat" vs. słyszałem, że mężczyzna jest gruby "I have heard that the man is fat", Irish an fear atá ramhar vs. chuala go bhfuil an fear ramhar.) It may be only Romance languages that lack it.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

arabarra
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-10-11, 20:26

No, because it isn't even found in all Indo-European languages. E.g. Standard German:



:hmm: interesting, with Irish and slavic languages, but to my eyes, the German case is a confirmation rather than an example. It is very tempting to think that the particle that introduces an indirect clause in german ("dass") is just a change the neutral of the determinant pronouns. Your example sentence uses the masculine case, but with a neutral word we are again in the same situation, like in other germanic languages (english "that", dutch "dat")

Das Problem, das wir haben
Ich sage, dass wir ein Problem haben.

In the other german languages, the gender of the determinants went lost.

Actually, in Basque we also have a situation in which the same mark is used to subordinate a sentence to two syntactically different things: -N ending relates to relative clauses (sentence subordinate to a noun) or to indirect questions (in which the sentence is subordinate to a verb).

Dunbots,
So... could you answer my questions please? :)


I most certainly could :) ... but don't you want to give it another try after the explanation? The part ""pozik izan zaude?" should be "pozik zaude?", and it sounds perfectly natural in Basque, doesn't need any adaption.

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-10-11, 20:52

So... is it "Lekura bizi zaren pozik zaude?"? :oops:

Actually, in Basque we also have a situation in which the same mark is used to subordinate a sentence to two syntactically different things: -N ending relates to relative clauses (sentence subordinate to a noun) or to indirect questions (in which the sentence is subordinate to a verb).

Could you give me an examples of these two uses, along with an example of -(E)LA? Eskerrik asko!
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 19829
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby linguoboy » 2010-10-11, 20:58

arabarra wrote:interesting, with Irish and slavic languages, but to my eyes, the German case is a confirmation rather than an example. It is very tempting to think that the particle that introduces an indirect clause in german ("dass") is just a change the neutral of the determinant pronouns.

You may be right about the history of these words, but the fact remains that the distinction exists in the modern language. It's even more striking in the dialects, which have often show a single generalised relative pronoun (e.g. Alemannic dr Mann, wu digg isch "the man that is fat").
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

arabarra
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-10-11, 21:07

So... is it "Lekura bizi zaren pozik zaude."? :oops:



coming closer! The -N ending of the verb is now correct. Now just two things to correct:
1) We need the case " non " (where), not the case "nora" (where to)
2) The main noun of a relative clause is attached directly after the verb.

The result is
bizi zareN lekuaN pozik zaude?

or
Pozik zaude bizi zaren lekuan?


Now, as summary of verb endings:
-(e)N for relative complements
Etorri deN gizona <-> the man that came in
-(e)N for indirect questions
Galdetu dut ea gizona etorri deN. <=> I asked whether the man came in (or not)
-(e)LA for completive sentences
Esan dut gizona etorri dela <=> I've said that the man came in

arabarra
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-10-11, 21:16

linguoboy,

You may be right about the history of these words, but the fact remains that the distinction exists in the modern language.


Fair enough. I just wonder about the ancient roots, and the logic of the languages in their early stages of development... Do you think this part of "indoeuropean grammar" is known to scholars?

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-10-23, 18:43

Milesker! I understand them a lot better now. I've been studying Basque mostly regularly, and it has been going well. :)

I have seen a sentence in the comments of Basque songs on YouTube a few times, but I'm not sure what it means.

Abesti hau zeinena da?
Zeinena da abesti hau?


What does it mean? Does it have anything to do with "zeinen", meaning "what a...!" or does it mean something else?
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!

arabarra
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2010-10-29, 8:15

Hi Dunbots

it means "whose song is that?¨. The decomposition of zeinena is

zein- : pronoun (equivalent to "nor¨, or the englsih "who")
-en- : genitiv suffix
-a : article

Dunbots
Posts: 195
Joined: 2010-09-19, 23:39
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Dunbots » 2010-11-02, 20:46

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.

With the help of a Spanish translation, I was able to translate and understand one of my favorite Basque songs, Bizitzarekin Dantzan by Urtz, but there was one line I wasn't able to translate, partly because the Spanish translation lacked it. :whistle:

The line is:

heriotza baino txiki txikiago den


And what does "argitasupean" come from? I can't find any word like it, so maybe it's a Gipuzkera word?

AND what does "daudenen" mean? :)

The full lyrics are located here if you need them, along with the Spanish translation under "Traducciones".

Eskerrik asko! Abesti hau oso gogoko dut.:partyhat:
Currently learning: [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]la[/flag]
Hizkuntza bat ez da nahikoa!
Ūna lingua numquam satis est!


Return to “Basque (Euskara)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest