What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

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JuxtapositionQMan
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-01-12, 0:43

Misquoting must be your thing today.
Levente wrote:I didn't say not even once that I "hate" definite articles, accusatives, gerunds, tenses, etc.

"don't like" ≠ "hate". Same idea, but to completely different extents.

Levente wrote:I just said those things because the topic was "How could we simplify the language".
How to make it more simple, not to make it more likeable or efficient.

"What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?" ≠ "How could we simplify the language?". Make easier ≠ simplify. Make easier = make intuitive. Most of the things you proposed are completely counterintuitive.

Levente wrote:By the way, I don't like languages which don't have these things. :)

What things? I do not understand. (You may think I'm being sarcastic, but I'm serious)

Levente wrote:Note: At the gerund part, where you said "while teaching".
You could say "while he/she teaches".

a "while he teaches" does not sound like an alternative to a "teaching".

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:That could actuall be something to change: add li on the end of a pronoun to make it male, ŝi for female. The pronouns would be mi, ci, gi/ri, ĝi, ni, vi, i, and si (gili/rili=he, giŝi/riŝi=she). Tell me if you like the Idea.

Why you no reply to my idea?
Well, that was a thing.
speak:  (en) (eo)
learning:  (fr) (de) (ru) (pt) (es) (ro) (art-jbo)
hiatus:  (fi) (it) (la) (wa) (sv) (eu) (zh.Hans) (is)
want to learn:  (fo) (be) (ko) (he) (sw) (hi) (tr) (nl) (cy) (hu)

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Koko » 2014-06-21, 19:07

I would allow for /iV/ to be [jV] in polysyllabic words. Same with any /uV/. I doubt that this would cause ambiguity: the words that would endup being homophones would likely contrast when it comes to context. If this already is allowed, tell the people who write the sources I keep on finding. Everyone says that <ia> must be [i.a]. It would certainly make it easier for me.

Allowance of certain lenitions:

What would you think "Mi'vas" means? Or "L'aeroplano?"


Also, Jux, in some instances when something is easier it is simple. Easy and simple are often synonymous.

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby zanOTK » 2014-06-23, 2:04

Koko wrote:I would allow for /iV/ to be [jV] in polysyllabic words. Same with any /uV/. I doubt that this would cause ambiguity: the words that would endup being homophones would likely contrast when it comes to context. If this already is allowed, tell the people who write the sources I keep on finding. Everyone says that <ia> must be [i.a]. It would certainly make it easier for me.

Allowance of certain lenitions:

What would you think "Mi'vas" means? Or "L'aeroplano?"


Also, Jux, in some instances when something is easier it is simple. Easy and simple are often synonymous.


I personally like /ia/, but I can see how /ja/ might be easier.

As for "mi'vas" and "l'aeroplano"... I have absolutely no idea what "mi'vas" is. But "l'aeroplano" looks like "the airplane." Except "airplane" in Esperanto is "aviadilo" or "flugmasxino." Where is the lenition?
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Koko » 2014-06-23, 4:18

May have used lenition wrong. Mi'vas= mi+havas. It's kind of like "I've."

A video I watched before I decided no to Esperanto (reasons that are too nitpicky. It's a constructed language! If a problem exists in it, the creator should easily be able to fix it once it's noticed. IALs aren't meant to be full of mistakes!) said aeroplano for airplane, so… but you got my point for it I suppose.

I've seen mi'stas, so I see no reason why l'erao or l'aviadilo shouldn't be allowed. It's already got enough contradictions (<-I won't explain this) l' might as well be accepted. And while I'm at it, d' should be too. And n'(negative).

Where the hell did the -dilo come from?! I understand the avia-, but dilo doesn't resemble any suffix/word from anything I've seen of the languages Esperanto's based on.

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Levike » 2014-06-23, 4:26

How about saying aha instead of jes?
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Koko » 2014-06-23, 4:52

That seems more like saying "Ah hah!" rather than yes. Or even like "haha" without the initial /h/.

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Levike » 2014-06-23, 5:56

Koko wrote:That seems more like saying "Ah hah!" rather than yes. Or even like "haha" without the initial /h/.
But that only depends on the tone of your voice.

Plus, I think everyone uses aha for yes in almost any language.
Definitely more known than the English yes.
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Koko » 2014-06-23, 6:05

Wait… do you mean uh-huh? Or like the triumphant shout? If so, I don't think aha is used for even almost every language.

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Mutusen » 2014-06-23, 7:19

Koko wrote:I've seen mi'stas, so I see no reason why l'erao or l'aviadilo shouldn't be allowed.


Actually, using l' instead of la is accepted since the beginning of Esperanto, but in practice it only happens in poetry and songs.

And mi'stas is definitely incorrect.
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Koko » 2014-06-23, 8:45

I think I've seen Jux, closest to a native Esperanto speaker here, use mi'stas. And another. I forget which thread I may have seen it, I'll have to check.

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby zanOTK » 2014-06-23, 14:24

Koko wrote:I think I've seen Jux, closest to a native Esperanto speaker here, use mi'stas. And another. I forget which thread I may have seen it, I'll have to check.


The problem with contractions like "mi'stas" and "mi'vas" is that they make it harder for new learners to understand the language. L' is easy enough and, as has already been said, is perfectly acceptable in Esperanto. So if you want to use L', go ahead. Most people don't, though.

I don't know exactly how long Jux has been using Esperanto, but I do know he has some... "Interesting" ideas about what constitutes correct Esperanto. Basically, a lot of what he considers correct everyone else believes is incorrect. And most of us can't even understand it. There are some words he uses that I can't find in the vortaro, so I'm not sure where he learned them. And when called out on this, he doesn't act like he cares. He continues to use Esperanto that nobody understands.

And by the way, I have read what -actual- denaskuloj have said in Esperanto: It's usually very clear and easy to understand. In some cases, it's easier than understanding non-natives. The only confusing part is they sometimes don't use -n where it's needed. But that makes sense, since many of them only learned their native tongue by listening to their parents and never received any formal education on it.
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Koko » 2014-06-23, 18:56

Hmm, I imagine he uses an unofficial colloquial Esperanto. Mi'stas certainly looks like something of a colloquial language. I've also seen ki'stas. In fact, both I found on your Saluton thread. I also don't think he would use it when speaking with people he doesn't know, nor do I think it would be necessary to learn and therefore wouldn't cause any more confusion because it is more casual. The 'stas is something that I believe would eventually evolve.

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Koko » 2014-06-23, 19:05

Plus, I still need to get into the hang of using colloquialisms in English, and I'm a native. There are non-native speakers who know colloquial Englush better than me, so I doubt things like mi'stas (mi'vas is a shot in the dark) should make learning Esperanto harder to learn.

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Mutusen » 2014-06-23, 19:12

Koko wrote:Hmm, I imagine he uses an unofficial colloquial Esperanto. Mi'stas certainly looks like something of a colloquial language. I've also seen ki'stas.

I've used Esperanto in all sorts of colloquials situations and I have never heard anything like "ki'stas".
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby zanOTK » 2014-06-23, 19:46

Koko wrote:Hmm, I imagine he uses an unofficial colloquial Esperanto. Mi'stas certainly looks like something of a colloquial language. I've also seen ki'stas. In fact, both I found on your Saluton thread. I also don't think he would use it when speaking with people he doesn't know, nor do I think it would be necessary to learn and therefore wouldn't cause any more confusion because it is more casual. The 'stas is something that I believe would eventually evolve.


The problem is that he was using this with someone he didn't know: me. And they confused me horribly. As did much of the rest of his Esperanto. It is not a good idea to use colloquialisms when speaking to somebody who is new to the language you're speaking. And, as I said, much of the vocabulary and grammar he was telling me to use didn't make sense according to official Esperanto rules. Nor did it seem to make sense to Mutusen, who has been using Esperanto a lot longer than myself.

Esperanto is about being able to communicate easily with people from around the world. We couldn't understand Jux, and he refused to use an Esperanto that we could understand. And that's a serious issue.

More to the point: Don't base what is "okay" and "not okay" in Esperanto off of what Jux says. Or what I say. Or what Mutusen says. Base it off of the official literature and what the general community uses. You'll be able to understand everyone better, and they will be able to understand you. :)
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Koko » 2014-06-23, 20:17

Good point.

'stas is still something that would make it easier. It's like the -u form of Japanese verbs. They don't make the language harder, what's hard is all the kanji and names in kanji. Like I said, if 'stas will be allowed, it should only be used with people you know in casual occasions(like the -u) and those who understand the language well. [ja, jo, je] and [ju] should also be used (whenever accepted) for <iV> in the same instances: of course it would be less common unless you can only converse with certain people using Esperanto.

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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby zanOTK » 2014-06-23, 20:52

Koko wrote:Good point.

'stas is still something that would make it easier. It's like the -u form of Japanese verbs. They don't make the language harder, what's hard is all the kanji and names in kanji. Like I said, if 'stas will be allowed, it should only be used with people you know in casual occasions(like the -u) and those who understand the language well. [ja, jo, je] and [ju] should also be used (whenever accepted) for <iV> in the same instances: of course it would be less common unless you can only converse with certain people using Esperanto.


Then go ahead and use 'stas. I don't think it makes much of a difference, but if you want to use it you can. I wouldn't use it on open forums though. Too much of a chance that you'll confuse new esperantistoj.
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby SostiMatiko » 2014-12-21, 15:31

I would reduce the number of roots to 222;
eliminate all diacritics in writing;
eliminate all words containing the sound L;
eliminate all letters of dubious phonetic value except x pronounced as in IPA;
use only one source of vocabulary, choosing internationally known words as much as practicable and approaching the ProtoHuman language as much as practicable;
eliminate compounding except for 3 words that can be attached as suffixes; otherwise, words combine by simply putting one after the other; for the beginners, hyphens can be added;
use only 5 basic suffixes, to show the part of speech: -o for nouns, -a for adverbs, -i for active verbs, -eti for passive verbs, and silencing the –i to make imperative, or, what is known in Esperanto as jussive;
these basic suffixes can be added on already suffixed words;
no marker for adjectives: all nouns put before the head noun work as adjectives;
have 4 prefixes for yes / no functions, and 13 suffixes rather rare, but always available for derivation;
mark the object only if not following the verb or subject;
omit the verb subject if it can be inferred, or if it is general (like German “Man” and French “on”);
allow everything to be omitted if it can be inferred;
have 3 simple infixes, rarely used but available to show the person of a word;
allow, on the highest level, a possibility of rare backward formation for a more concise way of derivation;
have a possibility for both prepositional and postpositional usage too, in speech indicated through emphasis, intonation, speech division, and, in writing, punctuation.
ALL THESE HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE, and the result is SostiMatiko ( http://konlangerz.com/conlang/7/Systema ... ostimatiko ). Actually, SostiMatiko was born in almost complete ignorance of Esperanto; recently i had a look to Esperanto, and i found it shares some characteristics and some way of thinking. However, SostiMatiko is much more simple, much more free, all its material is contained on one A4 size page (written with big size fonts (size 16 to 20) and ample spaces), all its material can be learned within just one day, and still it can express everything that Esperanto can. Also, SostiMatiko is great for exercise and for fun if you wish. To learn it, https://www.facebook.com/groups/omado.s ... 597912865/ and to join it https://www.facebook.com/groups/omado.sosti.matiko/ Suggestions are also welcome; all suggestions, even in the form of unfriendly criticism, are put to practice if possible.
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby Levike » 2014-12-21, 15:43

eliminate all diacritics in writing;
Okay,
eliminate all words containing the sound L;
Why? I'd rather throw R out.
use only one source of vocabulary, choosing internationally known words as much as practicable and approaching the ProtoHuman language as much as practicable;
If you want more known words you got to go eurocentric, almost everyone on the globe speaks either English or Russian or a some kind of a Romance language.
no marker for adjectives: all nouns put before the head noun work as adjectives;
I think it'd look goofy.
have a possibility for both prepositional and postpositional usage too, in speech indicated through emphasis, intonation, speech division, and, in writing, punctuation.
Confusion, better have strict word order.
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Re: What would you change about Esperanto to make it easier?

Postby SostiMatiko » 2014-12-21, 16:20

thank you Levike for sensible criticism.

To say as little as possible, every sound has an esoteric objective meaning, and the worst for all humanity is the sound L. Its meaning is the root of all evil. This is something you must observe for yourself if you are willing to, it is the kind of knowledge that cannot be proved with pure mathematics and mainstream science. Exactly because we live in an evil era, mainstream science will never accept that.

Having freedom for both prepositions and postpositions could make it less simple indeed, but on the other hand it gives e.g. the Japanese the possibility to use it with only postpositional adverbs, while e.g. the Arabs might use it with only prepositions, and those more flexible could have great freedom. Such confusion can be eliminated in simple ways.

All that you said is quite sensible, i just have to note these two things above.

All languages come from one single ProtoHuman language, but they have taken very different ways. I know many many words from really many languages of the world, but i cannot use words from different sources together, because the human mind "switches" to one language at a time. That is one main reason why i cannot accept a multi-source language like Esperanto. Latino Sine Flexione could be ideal, if it accepted some simple improvements, which it has not yet accepted.
ॐ भूर् भु॑वः सुवः त॑त् सवितु॑र् व॑रेणियं भ॑र्गो देव॑स्य धीमहि धि॑यो यो॑ नः प्रचोद॑यात्


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