Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

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Irusia
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Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Irusia » 2016-11-13, 16:22

Ma olen näinud seda näiteks, sõnades "võrdlema", "kahtlema", "vehklema".
Samuti on erinevad sõnad: "lendama" ja "lendlema"; "keerama" ja "keerlema".
Kas igal eesti verbil saab olla see sufiks, ja mida see tähendab ja kuidas seda kasutada?

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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-13, 20:59

Irusia wrote:Ma olen näinud seda näiteks, sõnades "võrdlema", "kahtlema", "vehklema".
Samuti on erinevad sõnad: "lendama" ja "lendlema"; "keerama" ja "keerlema".
Kas igal eestikeelsel verbil saab olla :?: see sufiks siseliide (infiks), ja mida see tähendab ja kuidas seda kasutatakse?

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My understanding is that it usually makes the verb iterative (repeated on a single occasion) or frequentative (repeated on multiple occasions).
Kargama 'to jump, to leap' and karglema 'to skip, to hop'
Lendama 'to fly' and lendlema 'to flutter'
Keerama 'to turn' and keerlema 'to gyrate'
But there are some that don't seem to fit this pattern:
Sügama 'to scratch' and sügelema 'to itch'
Igavlema 'to feel bored,' from igav (no verb without -le-)

It's not used with every verb. Maybe it theoretically could be, but some would not make sense. I'm hoping someone else will give a better explanation. There are many of these verb infixes in Estonian (-ta-, -ne-, -le-, -sta-, -tse-, -ke-...). I've never found a good explanation in English, but here is a link (eesti keeles) with some information: http://www.eki.ee/books/ekk09/index.php?p=4&p1=2
It would be interesting to take a word and see how many infixes could be used in it and how they change the meaning: ringima, ringlema, ringitama....
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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Irusia » 2016-11-14, 4:03

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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Naava » 2016-11-14, 9:43

Does -le- change the "feeling" of the verb? As in, can you use lendlema to say that "I'm not going to anywhere in particular, I'm just flying around the sky here and having fun~"? And if you flew very often to, say, Paris, could you use lendlema to mean that you do that repeatedly or would you need to say "I fly often" with lendama?
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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-15, 5:20

Naava wrote:Does -le- change the "feeling" of the verb? As in, can you use lendlema to say that "I'm not going to anywhere in particular, I'm just flying around the sky here and having fun~"? And if you flew very often to, say, Paris, could you use lendlema to mean that you do that repeatedly or would you need to say "I fly often" with lendama?

In the case of lendlema my impression is that the meaning is more specific to the type of flying that, for example, flying creatures such as birds and butterflies do. It makes me think of wings flapping and flying short distances repeatedly. But this is just based on the few times I can remember hearing it used; it always referred to something like a bird, or a metaphor comparing someone to a flying bird/butterfly. So as a metaphor it could be used for "flying around having fun" - lendlen nagu õnnelik liblikas. I think it can be used like that to express a feeling or mood.
But to me, it would sound really odd to use lendlema for an airplane flight, like saying "I flutter to Paris" in English. Again though this is just my impression. It either sounds like a joke, or something wrong with the plane. Maybe Ainurakne or another native speaker can provide more insight?
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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Naava » 2016-11-15, 14:38

Linguaphile wrote:But to me, it would sound really odd to use lendlema for an airplane flight, like saying "I flutter to Paris" in English.

Why are you assuming I would not flutter to Paris? :lol: Ok no, but what word would you use if fluttering is not an option?

I feel I can't just explain what I mean very well, so let me give an example from guess-what-language:

linnut lentelevät taivaalla - the birds are flying in the sky, going here and there, but staying in the (somewhat) same area; they are flying because, idk, they enjoy flying
linnut lentävät taivaalla - the birds are flying from A to B; they're flying because they need to get from A to B

The -le- forms sound like less intended action, something that doesn't have a clear purpose etc. So, does Estonian have similar distinction or does lendlema mean just that they fly short distances repeatedly?

Ps. I still feel like I'm not very good at explaining what I mean. :lol:
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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-15, 16:11

Naava wrote:linnut lentelevät taivaalla - the birds are flying in the sky, going here and there, but staying in the (somewhat) same area; they are flying because, idk, they enjoy flying
linnut lentävät taivaalla - the birds are flying from A to B; they're flying because they need to get from A to B

I think it can be used just like your examples in Estonian too. I'm just not sure about using it for flying in an airplane. Can you use lennellä in Finnish in that context? To me it would sound rather strange. I've never heard lendlema used that way in Estonian but I'm really not sure whether that's because it's not used that way, or just because it's never come up in my experience.
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 (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
 (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.

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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Naava » 2016-11-15, 16:54

Lentää + airplane is fine, no problems here. Lennellä + airplane, possible but not so common. I could say that someone lentelee ympäri maailmaa* if I wanted to exaggerate how much they travel. It makes it sound less planned and more like "one day in France, the next in Hong Kong". :mrgreen: Depends a bit on the context, but it's easy to imagine a negative tone in it: instead of doing something serious, they're just going here and there... Think about a worker who never gets to leave their work place and who's heard that their collague will go abroad once again. :D

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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Lumilintu » 2016-11-15, 17:14

Naava wrote:Does -le- change the "feeling" of the verb? As in, can you use lendlema to say that "I'm not going to anywhere in particular, I'm just flying around the sky here and having fun~"? And if you flew very often to, say, Paris, could you use lendlema to mean that you do that repeatedly or would you need to say "I fly often" with lendama?


Actually, what you said there is one aspect of the -le- infix as well. With lendlema you don't have a fixed direction, you're just "flying around". I think it's even more obvious than the repetitive function.
For example:
Linnud lendavad ümber maja. - The birds are flying around the house (as in: flying in circles around the house, with some sort of direction included).
Linnud lendlevad ümber maja. - The birds are flying next to the house, on all sides of the house, but they don't have a fixed direction, they might fly back and forth, not do a single circle around the house, but just fly next to it.
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Re: Mis on sufiksi "-le-" tähendus?

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-15, 18:41

Lumilintu wrote:Actually, what you said there is one aspect of the -le- infix as well. With lendlema you don't have a fixed direction, you're just "flying around". I think it's even more obvious than the repetitive function.
For example:
Linnud lendavad ümber maja. - The birds are flying around the house (as in: flying in circles around the house, with some sort of direction included).
Linnud lendlevad ümber maja. - The birds are flying next to the house, on all sides of the house, but they don't have a fixed direction, they might fly back and forth, not do a single circle around the house, but just fly next to it.


Thanks Lumilintu (and Naava)! I kept picturing birds flitting from one place to another, never going very far at one time, or butterflies that keep changing direction. I know that when they do this it is lendlema but couldn't put into words how it's different from lendama. I just knew that a plane shouldn't do that. :nope: Yes, no fixed direction explains it well! :D
 (en-US) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
 (es-MX) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
 (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
 (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
 (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.


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