Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

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Linguaphile
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Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-04, 5:36

There is a short, old song "Kuukene" by Trad.Attack! posted on Youtube. They have provided the written lyrics, as well as an English translation. I know that it is in Põlva dialect, so it's basically Võro rather than (standard) Estonian. I'm wondering though about the the way they've translated the last two lines. Here is their English translation, their original lyrics, and my poor attempt at a standard Estonian version:

Dear moon, (Kuukene, kullakene) [kuukene, kullakene]
sweet dawn star, (armas aotähekene) [armas aotähekene]
take me to yourself! (võta minno hindäle!) [võta mind endale]
May my body get strong, (Saas mu kihä kinmäs) ["saas" mu keha kindel]
and resistant/durable. (jahumatt jaksas!) [jahumatt jaksas]
(Youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaP6jUgFGkA)

Is "saas" exclusively a southern-dialect word or also used in standard/northern Estonian? What would be the standard Estonian equivalent - maybe something with "las"?
What would be a literal translation for "jahumatt jaksas"?
"Jahumatt" seems to be a container for carrying flour, or "ovaalne v. ümmargune madal puunõu jahu kandmiseks või tõstmiseks," such as this one: http://muis.ee/museaalview/472663 Is this kind of container some sort of metaphor for durability? Or does the word have other meanings?
English (en) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
Spanish (es) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
Estonian (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
German (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
French (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.
Hmong (hmn) Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw.
Võro (vro) Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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ainurakne
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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby ainurakne » 2016-11-04, 14:05

As far as I know, the "-s" at the end of the verb marks the 3rd person in Võro language. So, "saas" could in Põlva dialect also be "saab" in standard Estonian.

I'm also wondering if this "-s" could mark the conditional mood (std-et: saaks) in some southern dialects. :hmm:
It may be just wishful thinking, though.

"Kinmäs" should be definitely translative in this context. So, it should be along the lines of "Saab/saagu mu keha kindlaks/tugevaks."

I'm not sure how to exactly translate "jahumatt jaksas" though. I couldn't find "jaks" in any form from Võro dictionary, so I'm not sure whether it should be a noun or a verb. It could be "jahumatt jaksab", "jahumatt jaksaks", "jahumatt jaksuks" or whatever... but in any way, it should have something to do with getting strong enough to be able to carry full jahumatt between the appropriate buildings of one's home.

Here you can find other versions of this (and other) spell(s):
http://www.folklore.ee/laulud/erla/E275.HTM
http://www.folklore.ee/lepp/urvaste/?sel_id=13
http://www.folklore.ee/lepp/polva/?sel_id=13
http://www.folklore.ee/lepp/setu/?sel_id=13
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

Linguaphile
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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-04, 22:28

Suur-suur aitäh! Your answer is very helpful and the links are great. Of course, the links lead me to more questions... the ones about "noor kuu" are difficult for me to translate, not just the dialect, but also the apparent lack of many verbs... :ohwell:

#1 (Urvaste khk)
Et elus puudust ei tuleks - so that want (scarcity/poverty) won't come in life
Kui noort kuud nähakse esimest korda, siis üteldakse: - when the young (new) moon is seen for the first time, it is said:
Tere, kuu, noormees, Hello, moon, young man,
ma terves, sa täies, "Health for me, fullness for you" - not sure of the case here (or part of speech) :roll:
jahumatt jaksas, [Enough] to manage a flour-dish,
leivakikk kimmas, (õhuke leivatükk) (kortsus)/a crumpled slice of bread :?:
seale und, saksalõ tõbe, Sleep for the pig, sickness for the master :?:
minu keha kerges. My body (easy) - maybe "rest for my body"? :?:

#2 (Viljandi)
Tere, tere, noor kuu! Hello, hello, young moon!
Mina, noor, sina vana, I, young, you, old,
mina kulla kerge'esse, I... gold (omastav)... into easy(ness) :?:
sina raua raske'esse! You... iron (omastav)... into difficult(y) :?:
English (en) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
Spanish (es) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
Estonian (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
German (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
French (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.
Hmong (hmn) Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw.
Võro (vro) Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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ainurakne
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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby ainurakne » 2016-11-05, 8:16

Võta heaks!

Linguaphile wrote:ma terves, sa täies, "Health for me, fullness for you" - not sure of the case here (or part of speech) :roll:
It's definitely translative case here again:
"Ma terveks, sa täieks(/täiskuuks)" - me - into the state of healthy(/unsick), you - into the state of full(moon)

Linguaphile wrote:leivakikk kimmas, (õhuke leivatükk) (kortsus)/a crumpled slice of bread :?:
"leivaviil kindlaks" - I think it refers to wishing to have bread(/food) on the table every day / securing food for the rest of the life.

Linguaphile wrote:minu keha kerges. My body (easy) - maybe "rest for my body"? :?:
"minu keha kergeks" ~ to turn my body "light"(the opposite of heavy) - I think having a "light" body refers to either being young and physically healthy or not being tired(/physically exhausted).

Linguaphile wrote:mina kulla kerge'esse, I... gold (omastav)... into easy(ness) :?:
sina raua raske'esse! You... iron (omastav)... into difficult(y) :?:
It's difficult to translate into something that would make sense. Maybe something like:
I (become) light as gold, you (become) heavy as iron - may be somewhat related to the previous one.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-05, 16:54

Tänan väga!!
Linguaphile wrote:leivakikk kimmas, (õhuke leivatükk) (kortsus)/a crumpled slice of bread :?:
"leivaviil kindlaks" - I think it refers to wishing to have bread(/food) on the table every day / securing food for the rest of the life.

If you wondered where I got "kortsus" from, I guess that is sort of strange.. but I looked in EKI's Väike murdesõnastik and found kimma <kortsu and kimman <kortsus from Karksi and thought kimmas could have been Urvaste's variant of that. I'm not sure why I didn't recognize kimmas as being the same as kinmäs in a different dialect and went wandering through the dictionary in search of something more complicated instead. Now it makes sense! :yep:

By the way, that Lõuna-Eesti Pärimuse Portaal you linked to is really interesting. I hadn't seen that site before.
The Setu link you provided gives an explanation before one of the spells:
Ko nuur' kuukõnõ om luud, sis ko edimäist kõrd näet, sis teretädäs, heidetäs rist(i)kene ette.

I understand the last part to be heidetakse risti ette, but I'm not sure whether risti ette heitma is another way of saying ristimärki tegema or is this something different? I understand it as: "When the new moon was created, and then it was seen for the first time, it was greeted and the sign of the cross was made." Do you agree?
English (en) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
Spanish (es) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
Estonian (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
German (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
French (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.
Hmong (hmn) Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw.
Võro (vro) Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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ainurakne
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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby ainurakne » 2016-11-05, 21:12

Linguaphile wrote:If you wondered where I got "kortsus" from, I guess that is sort of strange.. but I looked in EKI's Väike murdesõnastik and found kimma <kortsu and kimman <kortsus from Karksi and thought kimmas could have been Urvaste's variant of that.
Yes, I figured that. I also went there to check "leivakikk" which I first thought could be maybe "leivakäkk" or "leivakakk".

Linguaphile wrote:I understand it as: "When the new moon was created, and then it was seen for the first time, it was greeted and the sign of the cross was made." Do you agree?
Yes, this makes the most sense. Especially, since Setomaa is so close to Russia and Russians seem to make the cross sign a lot. Russian Orthodox church has had a big influence on Setomaa.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-05, 23:42

Aitäh abi eest! (ehk seto keeles: aiteh abi iist!) Muide, ainurakne, kust Eesti nurkadest sa pärit oled?
English (en) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
Spanish (es) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
Estonian (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
German (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
French (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.
Hmong (hmn) Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw.
Võro (vro) Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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ainurakne
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Joined: 2012-02-16, 22:09
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Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby ainurakne » 2016-11-06, 7:06

Võta heaks! :)

Peamiselt olen elanud Tallinnas ja selle ümbruses, kuid mul on juuri ka Tartumaal ja Lääne-Virumaal ning olen noiski paigus arvestatava aja veetnud.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

Linguaphile
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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-11-06, 17:42

ainurakne wrote:Võta heaks! :)

Peamiselt olen elanud Tallinnas ja selle ümbruses, kuid mul on juuri ka Tartumaal ja Lääne-Virumaal ning olen noiski paigus arvestatava aja veetnud.

Tänan vastust eest. "Noiski paigus" tähendab "in those places" (ainsuses: tolles[ki] paigas), eks ole?
English (en) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
Spanish (es) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
Estonian (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
German (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
French (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.
Hmong (hmn) Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw.
Võro (vro) Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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ainurakne
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Joined: 2012-02-16, 22:09
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Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby ainurakne » 2016-11-07, 7:36

Linguaphile wrote:Tänan vastuse(/vastuste?) eest. "Noiski paigus" tähendab "in those places" (ainsuses: tolles[ki] paigas), eks ole?
Jah, kuid ki-liide lisab juurde ka "too/also/even" varjundi.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-05-25, 4:42

Trad.Attack'il on uus laul ("Kullakarva"):
Kulukarva, kullakarva,
murukarva, mullakarva,
veekarva, vihmakarva...


Inglise keele tõlge on
Shimmer hay, shimmer gold,
Shimmer grass, shimmer earth,
Shimmer water, shimmer rain...


Ma tean, et karv tähendab värv või karvkate (loomade juuksed).
Kas "kulukarva, kullakarva" on siis pigem hay-colored, gold-colored.... või kas karv tähendab ka "shimmer" (võbelus, kuma)?
Ma olen nõus, et inglise keeles "shimmer hay" on parem ja poeetilisem kui näiteks "hay-colored". Mulle meeldivad sõnad ja tõlge nii, nagu on (kullakarva/shimmer gold jne.), aga ma tahan ka teada, mis tegelikult tähendab sõna "karva".
Tänan ette!
English (en) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
Spanish (es) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
Estonian (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
German (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
French (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.
Hmong (hmn) Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw.
Võro (vro) Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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ainurakne
Posts: 566
Joined: 2012-02-16, 22:09
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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby ainurakne » 2017-05-25, 9:33

Karv on ikka pigem selline niitjas moodustis. Tavaliselt kasvavad karvad loomade (sh. inimeste) naha pinnal, kuid on muidki karvu. Inimestel on samuti karvad - juuksed (juuksekarvad), kulmud (kulmukarvad), ripsmed (ripsmekarvad), habe (habemekarvad), rinnakarvad, käekarvad, jalakarvad, p***ekarvad ja muud on vaid karvade alamliigid.

Nagu juba mainisid, siis kasutatakse tõesti karva ainsuses ka looma (või inimese) kogu karvkatte kohta: "Söö, siis karv läigib!", "Koheva/sileda karvaga koer.", jne...

Aga karva saab kasutada ka samaselt sõnaga värv.
Sellisel juhul on karv
- osastavas käändes ([mille?]karva või [millist?] karva): kullakarva, punast karva
- omadussõnalises vormis ([mille?]karvaline): kullakarvaline, (puna(se)karvaline :?: )

Ning tähendab see mingit (või millegi) värvi või tooni olemist:
kullakarva = kullakarvaline = kuldne; punast karva = punane, punast värvi;


Ma nüüd ei ole sõna shimmer eriti palju kuulnud (ega ise kasutanud), seega täpselt ei tea öelda, kuid sõnaraamatute järgi tundub ta pigem värelevat kuma, värelust või sädelust tähendavat.
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away

Linguaphile
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Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-05-25, 13:22

ainurakne wrote:Aga karva saab kasutada ka samaselt sõnaga värv.
Sellisel juhul on karv
- osastavas käändes ([mille?]karva või [millist?] karva): kullakarva, punast karva
- omadussõnalises vormis ([mille?]karvaline): kullakarvaline, (puna(se)karvaline :?: )

Ning tähendab see mingit (või millegi) värvi või tooni olemist:
kullakarva = kullakarvaline = kuldne; punast karva = punane, punast värvi;


Laulust sõnad jõekarva, järvekarva = river-colored, lake-colored ?
Siin nende tõlge "shimmer" on arusaadavam, sest see "shimmer"/värelevat kuma/sädelus nähakse voolavas vees.
Ja see laul on ussisõnadest - pole vaja, et aru saan! :D

ainurakne wrote:Ma nüüd ei ole sõna shimmer eriti palju kuulnud (ega ise kasutanud), seega täpselt ei tea öelda, kuid sõnaraamatute järgi tundub ta pigem värelevat kuma, värelust või sädelust tähendavat.

Aitäh!
English (en) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
Spanish (es) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
Estonian (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
German (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
French (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.
Hmong (hmn) Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw.
Võro (vro) Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

User avatar
ainurakne
Posts: 566
Joined: 2012-02-16, 22:09
Gender: male
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Re: Kuukene, kullakene - song translation (Trad.Attack)

Postby ainurakne » 2017-05-28, 9:23

Linguaphile wrote:Laulust sõnad jõekarva, järvekarva = river-colored, lake-colored ?
Põhimõtteliselt küll.

Kuigi teoreetiliselt võidakse viidata muilegi nähtavatele pinnaomadustele kui vaid värvusele. Näiteks pinnakrobelisusele, läikele/peegelduvusele, millele iganes. Aga seda juhtub vast harvemini.


Nii palju kui olen selle laulu sõnu siin lugenud, siis eestikeelse teksti puhul on tegemist loeteluga millegi (kas ühe või mitme asja) välistest omadustest. Umbes nagu nimekiri: punane, kollane, sinine, must, ... (või punast värvi, kollast värvi, sinist värvi, musta värvi, ...).
Tegemist ei ole nähtuste loeteluga (kulla sära, vee virvendus, jne...)!
Eesti keel (et) native, English (en) I can manage, Suomi (fi) trying to learn, Pусский (ru)&Deutsch (de) unfortunately, slowly fading away


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