Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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ainurakne
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-01-29, 8:55

Linguaphile wrote:Right, you do use the locative cases with negations too: Ma ei lähe Tartusse.
It helps to divided Estonian cases into two groups: grammatical cases (nominative, genitive, partitive) and semantic cases (all the others, including the six locative cases). The semantic cases behave a little differently from the grammatical cases - thankfully, they are simpler for the most part. So, yep, the semantic cases including the illative -sse keep their endings in the negative.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I haven't learned Estonian as a foreign language, so I don't know any formal explanations nor many of the rules. When explaining, I usually try to suck something out from my subconsciousness, which after writing down often ends up a cryptic and incoherent mess. :lol:

I would have also first thought about "Lõuna" in "Lõuna-Eesti" being genitive - a genitive that in meaning is similar to adjectival form southern in English, e.g. eesti keel, Hollandi juust, Ameerika auto, etc.
But you do have a point. Of course the non-final components of compound words don't (mostly) decline. And hyphenated words (or at least hyphenated names) act (as far as I know) exactly like regular compound words.

Some corrections though:
With Suurbritannia and Väike-Maarja you have to use inner locative cases (Suurbritannias and Väike-Maarjast) when talking about going into, being in or coming from those places.
I think Ladina in Ladina-Ameerika is also genitive (again, in meaning similar to an adjective in English; I think you can't even use this word by itself alone).
Linguaphile wrote:Häädemeesteni "until Häädemeeste" (not *Häädeni-meesteni or *Häädenimeesteni).
This is not a good example. The case ending of the last four cases is only appended to the final word, so you couldn't form *häädeni meesteni even if these were separate word (hääde meesteni is correct).

The reason for this, because the comitative case has grown out of genitive + the word ka(a), kaas or kah. Terminative has probably a similar origin, because it doesn't exist in other Finnic languages. Essive case was supposedly pretty much gone from Estonian, but was reintroduced from Finnish, but was reconstructed analogically to comitative and terminative. But I'm not sure about abessive case. Maybe it has mutated like this also because of the influence of other surrounding cases.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-01-29, 15:49

ainurakne wrote:Some corrections though:
With Suurbritannia and Väike-Maarja you have to use inner locative cases (Suurbritannias and Väike-Maarjast) when talking about going into, being in or coming from those places.
I think Ladina in Ladina-Ameerika is also genitive (again, in meaning similar to an adjective in English; I think you can't even use this word by itself alone).
Linguaphile wrote:Häädemeesteni "until Häädemeeste" (not *Häädeni-meesteni or *Häädenimeesteni).
This is not a good example.

Yeah, I was basically just using random cases, just to show where the endings would go, not so much to make sense I guess. Actually I have no idea why I chose those cases and you make a good point about not using a terminative case example, that there are really "too many" different reasons why *häädeni meesteni can't be said!

ainurakne wrote:The case ending of the last four cases is only appended to the final word, so you couldn't form *häädeni meesteni even if these were separate word (hääde meesteni is correct).

Actually yesterday I had thought about posting the nina taga mnemonic, but since I'd already divided the cases into the grammatical and semantic ones, I thought adding yet another category might be a bit too much for one post.
For those who don't know it: the four cases where only the final word takes the ending are terminative, essive, abessive, comitative, in other words the cases that take the endings -ni, -na, -ta, -ga. Those endings put together, nina taga, spell out "behind the nose" in Estonian, so they are the ninataga käänded, "behind-the-nose cases". I've even heard them described in English as "the Estonian nose cases".
Just for curiosity's sake: Ainurakne, do native speakers learn that mnemonic too, or just those of us who learn it as a foreign language? I'm thinking that maybe by the time Estonian children are old enough to understand mnemonics this rule might already be ingrained subconsciously... I'm always curious about how native speakers learn their first languages and which sorts of errors they make compared to those of us who learn the language "with a foreign accent". :D
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-01-29, 16:19

Linguaphile wrote:Just for curiosity's sake: Ainurakne, do native speakers learn that mnemonic too, or just those of us who learn it as a foreign language?
Yes, but only to memorize the correct order of cases.

If I remember correctly, then learning about cases in school was somewhere around 5th or 6th grade and the only things we learned about them were their names and their order (that there are 14 cases with specific names and they are listed in a specific order) and how to recognize them (connecting a case name to a specific word form), which wasn't difficult because Estonian cases have native names which are pretty much self-explanatory and everyone knows how to subconsciously use cases correctly even without knowing such things exist.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-01-29, 16:28

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Just for curiosity's sake: Ainurakne, do native speakers learn that mnemonic too, or just those of us who learn it as a foreign language?
Yes, but only to memorize the correct order of cases.

If I remember correctly, then learning about cases in school was somewhere around 5th or 6th grade and the only things we learned about them were their names and their order (that there are 14 cases with specific names and they are listed in a specific order) and how to recognize them (connecting a case name to a specific word form), which wasn't difficult because Estonian cases have native names which are pretty much self-explanatory and everyone knows how to subconsciously use cases correctly even without knowing such things exist.

Yes! I love the native Estonian names for the cases because even for me they are much easier to learn than the English (Latin-based) names for them. I actually tend to use the Estonian names for the cases almost exclusively, but use the Latin-based ones on this forum for others' sake. To be honest sometimes I have to look them up before posting to make sure I've gotten the right name. No such issues with the native Estonian names. :D
 (en-US) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
 (es-MX) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
 (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
 (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
 (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-01-31, 11:22

Linguaphile wrote:To be honest sometimes I have to look them up before posting to make sure I've gotten the right name. No such issues with the native Estonian names. :D
Same here. Although, I have to do that almost all the time. Before coming to this forum, I hadn't even heard of the Latin-based case names, but starting from then was forced to use them, so other people could understand what I'm talking about. Now I always open up the English Wikipedia page about Estonian grammar when I'm writing something here on this forum. :D

Also, I missed something:
Linguaphile wrote:Here the whole placename itself comes from the genitive plural forms of an adjective and a noun (Häädemeeste = dialect form of heade+meeste lit. '[city] of good men') but as a placename it's treated as a nominative, genitive, and partitive singular form, to which semantic case endings can be added.
I think you can also make partitive Häädemeestet. At least I have always done that, and heard it too.
The only reason, nominative and genitive look the same, is because the word already ends with a vowel and there is no distinctive genitive case marker in Estonian anymore.

But yeah, genitive placenames (which there are actually quite many) in Estonian can be odd and non-intuitive to handle. For example Kuressaare and Rakvere can be made partitive by just adding -t (Kuressaaret, Rakveret), but their illatives are based on their final words (saar and veri): Kuressaarde, Rakverre.

But of course, always when in doubt, one can add a suitable noun to it (Kuressaare linn, Rakvere linn) and then decline that. Probably the way it was originally meant to and they have just shortened over time.
Last edited by ainurakne on 2017-01-31, 17:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-01-31, 14:13

ainurakne wrote:I think you can also make partitive Häädemestet. At least I have always done that, and heard it too.

You mean Häädemeestet, right? Pleeease tell me you meant Häädemeestet, otherwise I'm going to have make a huge bonfire and burn my Estonian grammar books (in despair, not in celebration). :rotfl:
Actually, more seriously, I think I made a mistake saying Häädemeeste was also partitive. I really don't know the forms for that placename and I had plugged it into the Eesti keele süntesaator at Filosoft. I thought that it had given Häädemeeste for all three grammatical forms, but I tried it again just now and today it says Häädemeestet. So I must have typed something wrong into the Süntesaator or just read it wrong before.

ainurakne wrote:But yeah, genitive placenames (which there are actually quite many) in Estonian can be odd and non-intuitive to handle. For example Kuressaare and Rakvere can be made partitive by just adding -t (Kuressaaret, Rakveret), but their illatives are based on their final words (saar and veri): Kuressaarde, Rakverre.
But of course, always when in doubt, one can add a suitable noun to it (Kuressaare linn, Rakvere linn) and then decline that. Probably the way it was originally meant to and they have just shortened over time.

Good point, I like that! Sounds like a good way to deal with not remembering whether it's one that has a short illative/sisseütlev form or not. :D
 (en-US) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
 (es-MX) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
 (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
 (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
 (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-01-31, 17:56

Linguaphile wrote:You mean Häädemeestet, right? Pleeease tell me you meant Häädemeestet, ...
Yes, of course! Sorry about the typo and thank you for pointing it out! :oops:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Irusia » 2017-03-02, 18:05

Mida infinitiivi kasutada pärast "jätkama"?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-03-02, 19:54

Irusia wrote:Mida infinitiivi kasutada pärast "jätkama"?


-da, aga tavalisemalt osastava nimisõna, mitte infinitiivi
-da, but a partitive noun is more common, rather than an infinitive

Jätkab tööd = continues to work (noun: töö)
Jätkab tegevust = continues to operate (tegevus)
Jätkab küsimuse tõstatamist = continues to raise the issue (tõstatamine, noun-form of tõstatama)
Jätkab reisimist = continues to travel (reisimine, noun-form of reisima)
Jätkab kogumist = continues to collect (kogumine)

I may have heard jätkama used with the -des form too; not sure. I can't find any examples....

We can use gerunds in place of infinitives for this type of sentence in English too (continues working, keeps operating, and so on). I think Estonian uses noun forms more often than English does in this type of sentence though. For example "jätkab tööd" sounds better than "jätkab töötada" to me.
 (en-US) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
 (es-MX) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
 (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
 (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
 (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-03-03, 7:06

Linguaphile wrote:-da, aga tavalisemalt osastava nimisõna, mitte infinitiivi
-da, but a partitive noun is more common, rather than an infinitive
...
For example "jätkab tööd" sounds better than "jätkab töötada" to me.
You can't use da-infinitive at all. The only way to use a verb, is using its noun form in partitive: jätkab töötada -> jätkab töötamist.

I may have heard jätkama used with the -des form too; not sure. I can't find any examples....
-des only acts kind of like an adverb - it determines how (in what way/manner) the jätkamine is done. For example, jätkab tööd/töötamist kiirustades. And since you can omit the object, you can also say just jätkab kiirustades.

In Estonian, both inessive and instructive forms are fused together into -des, so the meaning could be either 'while/by doing something' or 'how?'
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-03-03, 12:48

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:-da, aga tavalisemalt osastava nimisõna, mitte infinitiivi
-da, but a partitive noun is more common, rather than an infinitive
...
For example "jätkab tööd" sounds better than "jätkab töötada" to me.
You can't use da-infinitive at all. The only way to use a verb, is using its noun form in partitive: jätkab töötada -> jätkab töötamist


But... but... the reason I said -da was because when I saw the question, before posting my response about partitive nouns, I googled "jätkab" to see if it was ever used with infinitive and I did see several examples where a -da infinitive appeared to be used. Jätkab olla, jätkab süüa and so on. So these are incorrect?
 (en-US) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
 (es-MX) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
 (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
 (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
 (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-03-03, 14:42

Linguaphile wrote:So these are incorrect?
Yes!

The only "jätkab olla" and "jätkab süüa" that I was able to find, were on foreign websites with machine-translated content which were a total mess.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-03-03, 14:55

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:So these are incorrect?
Yes!

The only "jätkab olla" and "jätkab süüa" that I was able to find, were on foreign websites with machine-translated content which were a total mess.


LOL. I guess I didn't look that closely at what the results were, just that it found some.
BTW there are some horrible machine-translated e-books for sale in Estonian now, at least in the U.S.; they are "translations" of classic works that have errors on every single page (or in every single sentence) translated by non-Estonian speakers using translation software. A while back I was so excited to find a whole collection of e-books in Estonian newly available, thinking they'd be great for language practice, and then I read the first paragraph of one and... ugh. "Total mess" does describe machine-translated Estonian pretty well!
 (en-US) Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere.
 (es-MX) El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes.
 (et) Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal.
 (de) Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt.
 (fr) L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Irusia » 2017-03-04, 9:15

Aitäh vastuste eest!
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