Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby E}{pugnator » 2016-02-02, 12:01

What's the normal meaning of the verb 'ma vean' and to which extent can it be used as a future?

I came across this sentence:

Tuldava wrote:Vean kihla kümne dollari peale.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2016-02-03, 11:21

"Ma vean" is something between "I drag", "I haul" and "I transport".

But it can also be used in a sense of to drive, to lead.
For example "Ma vean jooksu." (I am leading the run(run as a race)), "Vedav jõud." (driving force), "Vedavad rattad." (wheels that are connected to the motor (or some other source of kinetic energy) and thus contribute to the movement of the vehicle), "Vedav hammasratas." (gearwheel that drives all the other gearwheels connected to it), etc...

"Vedama" can also mean "to get lucky" or "to dodge a bullet", for example "Mul vedas." (I got lucky).


One way to indicate "kind of a future" is probably to use the so called "accusative" for the object. For example "Vean asjad koju." (I will haul the things to home) -- although that doesn't necessarily have to mean that you will start the action in the future, it just means that you will finish it some time in the future) -- as opposed to using partitive "Vean asju koju." (I am hauling things to home, I am doing some hauling of thing, which I haul to home; although depending on the context it could also mean I will do some hauling... - it's a process that can also take pace in the future).
But using "accusative" is not always possible, as verbs don't always have objects or the nature of the action may require partitive by default.

Other way to indicate future would be to include movement to a place or a state where you will do the action -- "Lähen vedama", "Hakkan vedama", etc. -- which isn't also always possible.

But often it doesn't matter whether you do something right now or later in the future, so there is no reason to try to cram in some kind of unnatural construct that refers to the future.

Tuldava wrote:Vean kihla kümne dollari peale.
"Kihla vedama" is an expression that means "to bet", "to make a bet", and since "kihla" in it is already partitive (at least it sounds like partitive), you can't make it refer to the future by using "accusative" -- I guess "kihla vedama" is already perceived as kind of like a process, hence it can not have a definitive result.
Instead of "framed" action like placing a bet, "kihla vedama" is more general. It's simply "to bet", as in "I'm hoping that something will happen". If you want a "framed" action, then you could use for example "Sõlmin kihlveo" ("veo" is accusative).
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Re:

Postby Irusia » 2016-02-25, 16:02

E}{pugnator wrote:

http://www.ibs.ee/dict/
A very good Estonian-English-Estonian dictionary. Only its search system is not very appropriate, for instance, if you search for üks you get all entries which have üks in between and this makes it rather impossible to search for small words. In these cases I prefer to use another online dictionary in Estonian. (I'll give the link later).

Probably someone already meantioned it, but there is a good dictionary, where you can also find all the declessions of Estonian words:
http://www.eki.ee/dict/psv
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Re: Re:

Postby h34 » 2016-02-27, 0:30

Irusia wrote:http://www.eki.ee/dict/psv
See on väga huvitav ja kasulik, eriti algajatele (nagu mina). Aitäh :)

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby h34 » 2016-03-18, 11:25

Mul on algajaküsimus... In the translation game I wasn't sure how to translate expressions like "(in order) to" + infinitive verb. As far as I know, there are these options:
- "et"
- "selleks, et"
- "nii, et"

Somehow "et" seemed too short (but perhaps it just sounds "too short" to me because in German we need at least two words: "um zu").

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2016-03-18, 12:36

In my opinion, for the sentence from the translation game that you are referring to, both "et" and "selleks, et" are fine. The difference is that "selleks" puts the emphasis on "for the reason". So, which one to use, depends on the exact context and what you want to say exactly.

But "nii, et" is different. "Nii" usually means "so", "like this", "this way", "in a way", etc...
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby h34 » 2016-03-18, 12:40

ainurakne wrote:In my opinion, for the sentence from the translation game that you are referring to, both "et" and "selleks, et" are fine. The difference is that "selleks" puts the emphasis on "for the reason". So, which one to use, depends on the exact context and what you want to say exactly.

But "nii, et" is different. "Nii" usually means "so", "like this", "this way", "in a way", etc...
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2016-03-18, 14:44

About the same sentence, could you also say "Jeesus Kristus tuli taevast alla maa peale andama meile igavene elu"?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2016-03-18, 17:44

Naava wrote:Jeesus Kristus tuli taevast alla maa peale andma meile igavest elu
Although in this context (because there is bunch of stuff after "tuli") I would put "andma" at the very end: "Jeesus Kristus tuli taevast alla maa peale meile igavest elu andma." <- for me personally this feels "more right".

And about "igavest elu", I think partitive is the only option here.
"... tuli ... andma meile igavese elu" sounds wrong, somehow.

EDIT: I think it's because the ma-infinitive here indicates relative future, it specifies the start of a process: what is going to happen, and not what the result will be.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2016-03-18, 18:30

ainurakne wrote:EDIT: I think it's because the ma-infinitive here indicates relative future, it specifies the start of a process: what is going to happen, and not what the result will be.

Ok, I see. Thanks! I thought it as part / whole object -thing, so that what's given is the whole life, not just parts of it. Does Estonian have this distinction at all or is this some kind of an exception where it doesn't work like that?

Do you see any difference in the meaning between igavest elu andma and et anda igavene elu?

In Finnish I could also say "antaakseen" in the place of et anda. Something like translative + possessive suffix, I think. Does Estonian have any similar construction?

One more question. :D Does the word igavene consist of parts iga+vene or is it just one single inseparable unit?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2016-03-18, 20:14

Naava wrote:Ok, I see. Thanks! I thought it as part / whole object -thing, so that what's given is the whole life, not just parts of it.
I think in this context it's more like a process vs. action with a definitive end result -thing. So, more like "doing some life-giving", not "giving some life".
Does Estonian have this distinction at all or is this some kind of an exception where it doesn't work like that?
Yes we have this distinction, but I think that differently from Finnish, it concentrates more on the processness or resultativeness of the action than partialness or wholeness of the object.

Do you see any difference in the meaning between igavest elu andma and et anda igavene elu?
You can also compare et anda igavene elu vs. et anda igavest elu.
In the first one you concentrate on the end result (came down to earth so that everyone would get eternal life as a result), in the second one you concentrate on the process of giving (came down to earth in order to conduct the eternal-life-giving process).

In Finnish I could also say "antaakseen" in the place of et anda. Something like translative + possessive suffix, I think. Does Estonian have any similar construction?
It looks a lot like our passive "antakse". And even like reconstructed Proto-Finnic passive "andaksen".

One more question. :D Does the word igavene consist of parts iga+vene or is it just one single inseparable unit?
I think the final "-ne" is the adjectival suffix. "Iga" (every; not to be confused with the other "iga" which means age) should be related to Finnish joka. But I don't know what that "-ve-" stands for. Maybe some kind of contraction or a rudiment of something longer or even a whole word.

EDIT: Actually, words "igav" and "igavus" also has the same "-v" after "iga".
Nowadays they are mostly used as boring and boredom respectively, but "igav" should actually mean monotonous, homogeneous, unvaried and thus "igavus" should come pretty close to eternity. Now "igavus" is superseded by "igavik" (as eternity).
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2016-03-18, 21:49

ainurakne wrote:In the first one you concentrate on the end result (came down to earth so that everyone would get eternal life as a result), in the second one you concentrate on the process of giving (came down to earth in order to conduct the eternal-life-giving process).

So there's no difference between andma / et anda as such?

ainurakne wrote:
In Finnish I could also say "antaakseen" in the place of et anda. Something like translative + possessive suffix, I think. Does Estonian have any similar construction?

It looks a lot like our passive "antakse". And even like reconstructed Proto-Finnic passive "andaksen".

That's interesting! But I wanted to know if there's a conjugation or something matching with the meaning rather than words that look alike.

ainurakne wrote:
One more question. :D Does the word igavene consist of parts iga+vene or is it just one single inseparable unit?
I think the final "-ne" is the adjectival suffix. "Iga" (every; not to be confused with the other "iga" which means age) should be related to Finnish joka. But I don't know what that "-ve-" stands for. Maybe some kind of contraction or a rudiment of something longer or even a whole word.

EDIT: Actually, words "igav" and "igavus" also has the same "-v" after "iga".
Nowadays they are mostly used as boring and boredom respectively, but "igav" should actually mean monotonous, homogeneous, unvaried and thus "igavus" should come pretty close to eternity. Now "igavus" is superseded by "igavik" (as eternity).

Are you sure it's every and not age? Cf. iänikuinen (lit. age-agey, what's wrong with this language), iankaikkinen and iäisyys. All mean 'eternal', 'never-ending', 'eternity'.
Anyway, looks like it should be igav+ene after all. Does that make any sense? :D Any theories what ene could be?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2016-03-18, 23:02

Naava wrote:So there's no difference between andma / et anda as such?
Oh snap, I thought you meant difference between partitive and genitive there. :oops:
They are totally different, although they translate into the same sentence when translated into English. You can't take "andma" by itself, it forms a compound with the other verb: "tuli andma" - meaning roughly came/moved into the state/position of giving.
That's interesting! But I wanted to know if there's a conjugation or something matching with the meaning rather than words that look alike.
Oh :roll:
Then, "andmaks" is pretty equivalent to "et anda".
Are you sure it's every and not age? Cf. iänikuinen (lit. age-agey, what's wrong with this language), iankaikkinen and iäisyys. All mean 'eternal', 'never-ending', 'eternity'.
Anyway, looks like it should be igav+ene after all. Does that make any sense? :D Any theories what ene could be?
:hmm: Hmm, now that I rechecked from the etymological dictionary, you are absolutely right. I mixed the two iga-s up.

Maybe igavene is something like ikäväinen. :lol:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2016-03-19, 9:36

ainurakne wrote:They are totally different, although they translate into the same sentence when translated into English.

That's why I asked - they sound totally different for me, but I can never be too sure how Estonian works. :lol: Maybe I could've expressed myself more clearly.

Then, "andmaks" is pretty equivalent to "et anda".

It seems I'll have another question, no matter what you answer. :D
This looks very similar to Finnish antamaksi which is a translative of antama, 'given by someone': X:n antama lelu, a toy given by X. Does it have this meaning in Estonian, too?

Maybe igavene is something like ikäväinen. :lol:

Haha maybe. :D That would kinda make sense!

(Btw I've never before noticed that iga and igav come from the same word, even though it's quite obvious... I feel as blind as I felt when I realised that maailm is just maa+ilm!)
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2016-03-19, 11:33

Naava wrote:This looks very similar to Finnish antamaksi which is a translative of antama, 'given by someone': X:n antama lelu, a toy given by X. Does it have this meaning in Estonian, too?
I'm assuming by antama you mean the agent participle (which I am not very familiar with yet). If so, then there is no such thing in Estonian (as far as I know). The closest thing to it would be either X-i antud lelu (past passive participle) or X-i antav lelu (present passive participle).

Interestingly, we do have a noun "andam" (maybe only vaguely similar to Finnish antama), but I'm not sure if they are in any way related or not.

In Estonian, "andma" and it's friends should be equivalent to Finnish 3rd infinitives: "andma = antamaan", "andmas = antamassa", "andmast = antamasta" and "andmata = antamatta". We don't have an equivalent to "antamalla", but we do have "andmaks" as mentioned before.

Also, maybe "andma" is not just pure "antamaan", but maybe a bit of instructive "antaman" has also fused into it. Ma-infinitive is required with the verb "pidama" (as must) and we also have this rare passive ma-infinitive (antama = fi:annetaman) which is only used with the verb "pidama". (more about this here)

(Btw I've never before noticed that iga and igav come from the same word, even though it's quite obvious... I feel as blind as I felt when I realised that maailm is just maa+ilm!)
Hmm, I don't remember when I first noticed that maailm is maa + ilm, but maybe it was more obvious than in Finnish, because in addition to maailm we sometimes also use (rarer) ilmamaa for world and even just ilm or even maa are occasionally used for world.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2016-03-20, 10:05

ainurakne wrote:Interestingly, we do have a noun "andam" (maybe only vaguely similar to Finnish antama), but I'm not sure if they are in any way related or not.

Could you give an example how you use andam? I'm not quite sure if I understood how it would work as a noun.

Also, maybe "andma" is not just pure "antamaan", but maybe a bit of instructive "antaman" has also fused into it. Ma-infinitive is required with the verb "pidama" (as must) and we also have this rare passive ma-infinitive (antama = fi:annetaman) which is only used with the verb "pidama". (more about this here)

I tried to google (yes I know this is the best source ever) and you can also say tulee annettaman. I guess tuleb antama is not possible?
No, wait, I googled again and it seems Päewaleht has used it in 1906. Once.

Hmm, I don't remember when I first noticed that maailm is maa + ilm, but maybe it was more obvious than in Finnish, because in addition to maailm we sometimes also use (rarer) ilmamaa for world and even just ilm or even maa are occasionally used for world.

I know some dialects say mailma, which would make it more difficicult to see as two separate words, but my dialect has maailima. I should've seen it! :( It's even stressed in the same way as other compounds!

Ilmamaa sounds so strange to me. :D A bit like suddenly calling football ballfoot instead. But maa is ok for world in Finnish too. Tbh, almost anything can be called maa in Finnish.

Which leads me to a new question. How many of the words in the link are called maa in Estonian?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2016-03-20, 15:46

Naava wrote:Could you give an example how you use andam? I'm not quite sure if I understood how it would work as a noun.
I think it's kind of like a tax, an offering or a bribe - so, something that you give away in order to avoid some kind trouble or to gain something.

Can be used with verbs like to give, to pay, to get/receive, etc: "andamit andma/maksma", "andamiks andma/maksma", "andamina (ära) andma/maksma", "andamit saama", etc.
I tried to google (yes I know this is the best source ever) and you can also say tulee annettaman. I guess tuleb antama is not possible?
No, wait, I googled again and it seems Päewaleht has used it in 1906. Once.
It seems to be completely equivalent to "peab antama" in that context, but I had never seen nor heard "tuleb antama" before.
Nowadays one would say "tuleb anda" instead.
Ilmamaa sounds so strange to me. :D A bit like suddenly calling football ballfoot instead.
Maybe it's from reordering "maa ja ilm" in poetic contexts and then fusing them together again.
But maa is ok for world in Finnish too.
When opting to use only "half" of maailm, then Estonians mostly use ilm istead of maa.
Tbh, almost anything can be called maa in Finnish.
Which leads me to a new question. How many of the words in the link are called maa in Estonian?
Many of these words are ambiguous enough that they can be translated to maa at least in some contexts, except suit. I am not aware of any meanings of suit that can be interpreted as maa.

This may be really subjective, but the first meanings that pop into my mind when hearing some of these words are following (and thus how I would translate them when no other context is given besides that they are related to maa in some way):
  • soil (the substance that the ground layer of the Earth is made of): pinnas
  • ground (solid lower limit of the atmosphere): maapind
  • area: ala, maa-ala
  • dirt (like sand, but dark and contains nutrients for the plants): muld; (or when it's muddy): pori, muda
  • terrain: maastik
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2016-03-20, 15:58

ainurakne wrote:
Ilmamaa sounds so strange to me. :D A bit like suddenly calling football ballfoot instead.
Maybe it's from reordering "maa ja ilm" in poetic contexts and then fusing them together again.

Makes sense!

But maa is ok for world in Finnish too.
When opting to use only "half" of maailm, then Estonians mostly use ilm istead of maa.

That's interesting. Which one is more common, ilm or maailm?

I am not aware of any meanings of suit that can be interpreted as maa.

I had to check this one because the first thing to come to my mind was clothes. :lol: It seems it's a term from card games:
"Each of the sets of a pack of cards distinguished by color and/or specific emblems, such as the spades, hearts, diamonds or clubs of traditional Anglo, Hispanic and French playing cards."
These are called maa in Finnish.

What if you dropped something on the floor, could you say you dropped it "maha"?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2016-03-20, 17:03

Naava wrote:That's interesting. Which one is more common, ilm or maailm?
I'm not sure. In colloquial language, I think, ilm is quite common, because it's short and easier to say, especially in compound words (e.g. maailmasõda -> ilmasõda). Maybe older people use it more often than younger.

But I'm not sure if ilm could be also used for those parts of the world that are outside of the Earth's atmosphere.

It seems it's a term from card games: ...
These are called maa in Finnish.
Ok, that makes sense. That's actually pretty good way to call them.
How would you ask what kind suit a card belongs to? "Millaisesta maasta se on?"?

We call them "mastid" ("mast" for singular), which comes from Russian (not to be confused with the other "mast", which - surprise, surprise - means mast).
The names of the suits are: ärtu (hearts), poti/pada (spades), ruutu (diamonds) and risti (clubs).

What if you dropped something on the floor, could you say you dropped it "maha"?
Yes.

And if it's something sharp that digs into the ground when it falls (like a knife or a shovel, and in case of the actual ground), especially if it stays in the upright position, then I would say "maasse".
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2016-03-20, 17:24

There's a Finnish term ilmasota that means - surprise surprise - air war. Would that be also ilmasõda in Estonian?

ainurakne wrote:How would you ask what kind suit a card belongs to? "Millaisesta maasta se on?"?

"Mitä maata se on?"
How about Estonian? Would that be millisest mastist see on?

The names are quite similar to the Finnish ones!
ärtu - hertta, pada - pata, ruutu - ruutu, risti - risti

And if it's something sharp that digs into the ground when it falls (like a knife or a shovel, and in case of the actual ground), especially if it stays in the upright position, then I would say "maasse".

That's clever. I think we say something like "sticking out of the ground". The only good thing in it is that you can use the verb törröttää which I find hilarious. :lol:
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