jalg / jala

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littlepond
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jalg / jala

Postby littlepond » 2016-04-19, 17:51

Tere, tere everyone!

I was wondering why in words like "jalgpall" and "jalgratas", "jalg" is not in its omastav form ("jala"). Usually, isn't it that the first word (the possessor) is in its omastav (genitive) form? What am I missing here? Surely, "jalg" here is not in its nimetav form, is it, in words like "jalgratas"?

Thanks a lot in advance!
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby ainurakne » 2016-04-20, 9:29

littlepond wrote:Usually, isn't it that the first word (the possessor) is in its omastav (genitive) form?
Not necessarily.

For example: "raudhaamer" ~ iron hammer <- a hammer that is made from iron;
But: "rauahaamer" (if such a word exists) ~ iron hammer <- a hammer that is made for hammering iron;

"Jalapall" and "jalaratas" are also possible, but these sound more like things that one would wear on their feet or legs, just like "jalavõru" (~ leg bracelet, leg ring).

It may not be always consistent (and of course there are words whose nominative and genitive forms are identical or words which have such nominative or genitive that is inconvenient to use in compounds), but things usually seem to follow these rules:
- nominative: some kind of, some type of
- genitive: of something, for something


EDIT: actually, if you are not talking about the ball game, but about some very specific ball that is only meant to be kicked with feet (as opposed to any other body parts), then I guess you could also freely call it "jalapall".
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby littlepond » 2016-04-20, 16:19

Thanks so much, ainurakne: this is such a lovely reply and so much helpful for me!
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littlepond
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby littlepond » 2016-05-02, 19:08

I had another question about "jalg". Why omastav of "jalg" is used in a sentence like "ma lähen tööle jala"? (Is it the omastav form, by the way?) I would have thought "jalaga" would be used ("with feet").

Thanks in advance!
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby Naava » 2016-05-02, 22:10

I think it's instructive, not genitive. I've seen it used only with a few words, so it's more like a fixed way of saying something rather than a true word class of its own.
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby ainurakne » 2016-05-04, 6:41

Yes, it's instructive case (viisiütlev kääne). It looks like genitive, but answers to the question how?.
And most of the time it uses plural form: "paljajalu ~ palja jalu" ~ barefootedly :?:

It's pretty much extinct in Estonian, except in fixed phrases:
"ummisjalu" - I don't think I'm able to translate that
"paljapäi ~ palja päi" ~ bareheadedly :?:
"ammuli sui" ~ fully-opened-mouthedly :?:
"kinnisilmi ~ kinni silmi" ~ closed-eyedly :?:
etc...

Although you can also form them yourself. But the plural form doesn't use the regular "-de/te" ending like genitive plural, but vowel plural, and in the same grade as genitive.

For example, if you have partitive "jalga" (strong grade) and you can form vowel plural partitive "jalgu", then from genitive "jala" (weak grade) you can form "jalu":
sõrme -> sõrmi (NB: weak grade, not like partitive)
kõrva -> kõrvu (NB: weak grade, not like partitive)

But I don't think this works with words whose vowel plural is marked with multiple vowels like "ai", ei and such. Although, I have seen present participle (-v) instructive form "-vi", even though its partitive plural is "-vaid":
"värisevi sõrmi" (~ "värisevate sõrmedega, sõrmed värisemas") ~ with shaking fingers
"lipendavi kõrvu" (~ "lipendavate kõrvadega, kõrvad lipendamas") ~ with flapping ears

But it seems that in some dialects the grade differs from genitive, and is usually strong. It seems that even "jalgsi" is instructive. And then there are also parallel forms like "piki ~ pikki" (~along), "silmi(weak) ~ silmi(strong)", etc...


Although, instructive case is pretty much dead, you can find it everywhere if you know how to look for it and compare words with Finnish. For example "nii" (so, like this, this way; Finnish niin) and "kaua" (for a long time; Finnish kauan) are instructive forms.

Some examples of instructive case in different dialects and languages.
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby littlepond » 2016-05-04, 20:32

Thanks a lot, both of you, though I didn't understand everything, as I don't know what this "weak grade" is (maybe because I am a debutant learner in Estonian). I will try to find more things to understand what seems very fascinating!
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby ainurakne » 2016-05-04, 21:32

Maybe grade isn't the right word then. I'm not really sure how these things should be called in English. :roll:

What I mean is, when there is gradation. For example, the very same jalg:
jalg : jala : jalga

There is a change in the word stem - nominative and partitive have a "strong" consonant cluster while genitive is "weaker" at the same location.

Or the other way around:
kinnas : kinda : kinnast

This is also usually accompanied by difference in length of the pronounced sounds, for example "nd" (in kinda) is overlong but "nn" is just long.

Length can also wary even if it's not visible in writing, for example:
hoone : hoone : hoonet
kõrv : kõrva : kõrva

"oo" in nominative hoone and partitive hoonet is long, but overlong in genitive hoone. "rv" in genitive kõrva is long, but overlong in nominative kõrv and partitive kõrva.
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby Naava » 2016-05-05, 10:17

ainurakne wrote:Maybe grade isn't the right word then. I'm not really sure how these things should be called in English. :roll:

Grade is the correct word. :)

Is there any rule which conjugations have strong and which have weak grades? I know that long time ago (Proto-Finnic maybe) the weak grade was used in closed syllables and the strong grade in open syllables, but I don't see how this works with hoone or kõrv. :hmm:
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby ainurakne » 2016-05-05, 12:20

Naava wrote:Grade is the correct word. :)
Ok, thanks! :D
Naava wrote:Is there any rule which conjugations have strong and which have weak grades? I know that long time ago (Proto-Finnic maybe) the weak grade was used in closed syllables and the strong grade in open syllables, but I don't see how this works with hoone or kõrv. :hmm:
Sorry, but I have no idea! :?


Although, looking at hoone, doesn't it belong into the same word class as kinnas?
Proto-Finnic hoone was: *hooneh : *hoonehen : *hoonehta

I'm not sure about kinnas (couldn't find it), but since its genitive in Finnish has double a (kintaan), I bet its Proto-Finnic form was something like: *kinnas : *kintasen : *kinnasta

The same conjugation pattern. Other similar words are kallas and põõsas.


On the other hand, I think all monosyllabic words that end with consonant(s) (like kõrv) are always in strong grade. And if there in no change in stem, just an additional vowel at the end in genitive and partitive, then partitive is in the same grade as nominative and genitive is in the weak grade.


EDIT: Or, when looking at it like this:
The same way as the long ending of *hoonehen (FI: huoneen) has turned into overlong first syllable in hoone, the same has happened to all "short" illatives, for example *tulehen (FI: tuleen) > tulle.
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby Naava » 2016-05-05, 16:33

ainurakne wrote:I'm not sure about kinnas (couldn't find it), but since its genitive in Finnish has double a (kintaan), I bet its Proto-Finnic form was something like: *kinnas : *kintasen : *kinnasta

Well, in my dialect we still say huonehen and kintahan, so I think that's how it's been in Proto-Finnic as well. I've read the genitive was originally -sen, so of course it's been *kintasen once. But if *huonesen was already changed to -hVn, why would kinnas be an exception?

Thank you for your thoughts anyway, it was helpful!
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby ainurakne » 2016-05-05, 19:41

I'm not sure how reliable it is exactly and what time does it reflect, but browsing Proto-Finnic nouns in Wiktionary, I would say that genitive was just "-n". Words that already end with a vowel just get "-n" appended to them in their genitive form. And words that end with a consonant, seem to get "-en".

"-hen" and "-sen" should be illative. "-sen" seems to mostly get appended to "e" (and maybe something else also), and other words seem to mostly get "-hen" in their illative form.

Also, it seems I was mistaken and it should actually be "*kindahen" instead of "*kindasen" (s -> h), when taking words like "*hambas > *hampahen" and "*hirvas > *hirvahen" as an example.

On the other hand, there are also words where s -> ks: "*hibus > *hibuksen" and "*ilbes > *ilbeksen". But I doubt this applies to "kinnas".
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby littlepond » 2016-05-06, 7:24

Thanks, again, a lot to both of you! This has been such a fascinating discussion, which gives me more desire to learn well Estonian!
And now I do understand what "grade" is, thanks to both of you!
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby Naava » 2016-05-06, 7:52

Oh yes of course, I was thinking about these -s ending nouns only, and there the -s changes to -h in genitive. That's why I said the genitive is -hVn. Of course the genitive of talu has never been *talosen / talohen! :lol: My bad, I didn't think this all the way through and explain myself clearly.

I did not know that it's been -sen -> -hen -> hVn. (Again, speaking about the -s ending nouns only where that S is part of the word itself, not the suffix.) Thanks for telling me!

Are you sure about this kindasen? I thought the pair was t - ð, so *kinðas and *kintasen?

//edit. I don't think either that kinnas would've ever been kinnaksen. I wonder what's the reason why some words have ks while others don't. Btw, there are some names in Finnish where both are possible: eg. Tuomas can be in genitive Tuomaksen or Tuoma(h)an.

littlepond, you're welcome! I'm glad you find the discussion interesting because I have a feeling I pop up in everyone else's topics to ask my own questions... :D But I have nothing in mind before someone asks something that reminds me of something else and there we go.
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby ainurakne » 2016-05-06, 9:19

@littlepond You are welcome!
I'm glad there are people who bother to read my blabberings. :P

Naava wrote:I did not know that it's been -sen -> -hen -> hVn. (Again, speaking about the -s ending nouns only where that S is part of the word itself, not the suffix.) Thanks for telling me!
Thanks! I hope that my "knowledge" about it is not wrong then. :lol:

Naava wrote:Are you sure about this kindasen? I thought the pair was t - ð, so *kinðas and *kintasen?
Oh snap! Of course I meant "*kintahen" and "*kintasen". I guess I automatically mixed up Finnish and Estonian spellings while repeating the word after reading it. :roll:

(at least that's how I pronounce "*kintahen", like it was written "kindahen" in Estonian)

Naava wrote:I don't think either that kinnas would've ever been kinnaksen. I wonder what's the reason why some words have ks while others don't. Btw, there are some names in Finnish where both are possible: eg. Tuomas can be in genitive Tuomaksen or Tuoma(h)an.
I think I have heard the same in Estonian too: "Toomase" (long) and "Tooma" (overlong).

Maybe there could have been some variation of the length in pronunciation of previous syllables in Proto-Finnic too?
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Re: jalg / jala

Postby Virankannos » 2016-05-09, 19:36

You've been pretty much spot on with your analyses, as far as I can see and am aware of :) Just some elaboration:

The development of S-noun stems ending goes like -sen > -zen > -hen > -hVn. Illative suffix, being similar in form, has gone through the same development in most instances (there are some exceptions).

The weak grade of Late Proto-Finnic *nt is usually reconstructed as *nd (not **) for phonetic reasons: it's easier and more natural to pronounce. Similarly, *mp and *ŋk are postulated to have alternated with *mb and *ŋg (not ** / **ŋγ) because of the same reasons. Thus LPF *kindas : *kintahen, *hambas : hampahen and *kaŋgas : *kaŋkahen.
Naava wrote:Is there any rule which conjugations have strong and which have weak grades? I know that long time ago (Proto-Finnic maybe) the weak grade was used in closed syllables and the strong grade in open syllables, but I don't see how this works with hoone or kõrv. :hmm:
This was how the system worked in LPF, but in probably all Baltic-Finnic languages the system has broken down, in Estonian even more than Finnish. This is the reason behind the fact that some word stems have "inverse" consonant gradation, i.e. genitive is strong, nominative is weak, like the S-nouns, *ek-nouns like Fi sade (< LPF *saδek : *sateγen, where /γ/ is a voiced velar fricative) and contracted verbs like Fi hakata : hakkaan ~ Est hakata : hakkan (< LPF *hak̆kat̆tak : *hakkaδan, where the breve above indicates that the geminate consonant is short).


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