Mu teema eesti keele jaoks

[ainurakne]

... continues:

In Finnish, -sta verbs also belong into the first group (the one that that I made here first): olla, tulla, minna, panna, surra.
In Estonian it's much more difficult:

There are some words that belong there: 'pesta'(to wash), 'kusta'(to urinate)
This means that all the forms are formed exactly the same way as I described in my first group:

• pesta: pesema, pesen; pesin; pestakse, pesti; pesnud, pestud; pestes; pesev, pestav
• kusta: kusema, kusen; kusin; kustakse, kusti; kusnud, kustud; kustes; kusev, kustav

Then there is this a bit different word 'tõusta'(to stand/get up, to rise) - it seems to be quite similar to the previous ones, but it doesn't have e in ma-infinitive. According to ÕS, 'seista' also belongs into this group, although it gets a into its stem, not e:

• ma-infinitive: tõusma, seisma
• present: tõusen, seisan - sorry, I don't know when which vowel is used
• past: tõusin, tõusid, tõusis(3rd person); seisin, seisid, seisis
• passive: tõustakse, tõusti; seistakse, seisti
• -nud/-tud: tõusnud, tõustud; seisnud, seistud
• -des: tõustes, seistes
• -v/-tav: tõusev, tõustav; seisev, seistav

I guess this group can be recognized by looking both ma- and da-infinitive: -sma and -sta.


Another group - ma- and da-infinitives are -stma and -sta:
'tõsta'(to lift (up)), 'osta'(to buy), 'kasta'(to water (plants), but also to dip into a liquid), 'vesta'(to tell a story; to give shape to a wooden stick with knife)

• ma-infinitive (overlong) and present (long): tõstma, tõstan; ostma, ostan; kastma, kastan; vestma, vestan
• past (overlong): tõstsin, tõstis(3rd person); ostsin, ostis; kastsin, kastis; vestsin, vestis
• passive (long): tõstetakse, tõsteti; ostetakse, osteti; kastetakse, kasteti; vestetakse, vesteti
• -nud/-tud: tõstnud, tõstetud; ostnud, ostetud; kastnud, kastetud; vestnud, vestetud
• -des: tõstes, ostes, kastes, vestes
• -v/-tav: tõstev, tõstetav; ostev, ostetav; vestev, vestetav

For some words I want to use short forms for past passive, -tud and -tav, but I am not sure if this is correct or not: osti, ostud, ostav; kasti, kastud, kastav; vesti, vestud, vestav

vowel-vowel-TA words belong also to this group, but let's look at them separately: 'saata'(to send), 'keeta'(to boil something, (to cook)), 'veeta'(as in 'aega veetma' - to spend time), 'viita'(as in 'aega viitma' - to waste time), 'niita'(to mow)

• ma-infinitive: saatma, keetma, veetma, viitma, niitma
• present: saadan, keedan, veedan, viidan, niidan
• past: saatsin, saatis(3rd person); keetsin, keetis; veetsin, veetis; viitsin, viitis; niitsin, niitis
• passive: saadetakse, saadeti; veedetakse, veedeti; viidetakse, viideti; niidetakse, niideti
• -nud/-tud: saatnud, saadetud; etc...
• -des: saates, keetes, viites, etc...
• -v/-tav: saatev, saadetav; viitev, viidetav; etc...

And one more group - -skma / -sta: 'lasta'(to let; to shoot), 'mõsta'(to wash (dialectical))

• ma-infinitive: laskma, mõskma
• present: lasen, mõsen
• past: lasin, mõsin
• passive: lastakse, lasti; mõstakse, mõsti
• -nud/-tud: lasknud, lastud; mõsknud, mõstud
• -des: lastes, mõstes
• -v/-tav: laskev, lastav; mõskev, mõstav

EDIT: according to ÕS mõskma past seems to be actually:
mõsksin, mõsksid, mõskis, mõsksime, mõsksite, mõsksid;
But laskma allows both forms:
lasksin & lasin, lasksid & lasid, laskis & lasi, lasksime & lasime, lasksite & lasite, lasksid & lasid (or like some older people say lasivad )

[hashi]

Wow, thanks so much. I will have to sit down soon and have a read of what you wrote. It is a lot of information to take in. Will let you know if I have any questions about it afterwards

Tänan väga!

[ainurakne]

You are welcome

Unfortunately I have covered only about 6 or 7 verb groups yet, out of about 20 or so
I guess that's why there is not much information about Estonian verb groups on the internet (like there is about Finnish - which has only about 5 or 6 of them - made it really easy to learn conjugation), because I guess the verb groups won't help much if there are so many of them that one just can't memorize them all. Heh, this reminds me of that again.

Anyway, I guess I should add here at least the most common ones too (when I figure out what they are). But ofcourse you can also ask if you can't fit some verbs into the previous ones - then I can give you the whole conjugation about them.


EDIT:

Ok, this one should be one of the largest groups - -tama/-tada - because many verbs here are made from all kinds of:

• nouns: 'kiri'(writing(system), letter) -> 'kirjutama'(to write); 'pilt'(picture, image) -> 'pildistama'(to photograph); 'kari'(herd) -> 'karjatama'(to herd), etc...
• adjectives: 'ilus'(beautiful) -> 'ilustama'(to beautify); 'kaunis'(beautiful, beauteous) -> 'kaunistama'(to decorate, to beautify), etc...
• other verbs: 'jooksma'(to run) -> 'jooksutama'(to make someone run (around)); 'põlema'(to burn, to be on fire) -> 'põletama'(to burn something, to scorch (something)), etc...

This is also very simple verb group, I think that there are never any changes in the stem of the verb:

• ma-/da-infinitive: -tama, -tada
• present: -tan, -tad, -tab, -tame, -tate, -tavad; ei -ta
• past: -tasin, -tasid, -tas, -tasime, -tasite, -tasid
• passive (present & past): -tatakse & -tati
• -nud/-tud: -tanud, -tatud
• -des: -tades
• -v/-tav: -tav, -tatav
• -tamine

[ainurakne]

..., sest ma peaksin "verb stem" (lugema -> loe-) ...

I guess this groups is called -ema/eda & -uma/uda with gradation - because there are also words with the same ending, but which don't have that gradation thingy.

Anyway, I gathered together these words: 'lugema'(to read), 'pugema'(to crawl in or into somewhere, also to suck up), 'kudema'(to lay those egg-thingies by fish), 'kuduma'(to knit), 'taguma'(to pound, to beat (multiple times), to hammer), 'laduma'(to heap up or to stack somekind of things in an orderly manner), 'kaduma'(to dissappear, to get lost), 'vajuma'(to sink, to descend)

• ma/da-infinitive: lugema, lugeda; kaduma, kaduda
• present (consonant dissapears; 1st syllable: u -> o, a -> a; before ma/da: e -> e, u -> o): loen, poen, koen, koon, taon, laon, kaon, vaon
• past: lugesin, pugesin, kudesin, kudusin, tagusin, ladusin, kadusin, vajusin
• passive (present stem + -takse(present)/-ti(past)): loetakse/loeti, poetakse/poeti, taotakse/taoti, vaotakse/vaoti, etc...
• -nud/-tud (ma/da-stem + nud & present stem + tud): lugenud/loetud, pugenud/poetud, tagunud/kaotud, vajunud/vaotud
• -des (attached to ma/da-stem): lugedes, pugedes, kadudes, vajudes
• -v/-tav (ma/da-stem + v & present stem + tav): lugev/loetav, pugev/poetav, kaduv/kaotav(not to be confused with 'kaotama' v-form), vajuv/vaotav
• -mine (attached to ma/da-stem): lugemine, pugemine, kadumine, vajumine

NB: for example 'jaguma'(to be enough, to be dividable -> 'jagun', etc...) doesn't belong to this group; also 'vajuma' can be also conjugated the same way as 'jaguma'.
NB2: I have also heard vaduma instead of vajuma, although I can't find it in ÕS, but I guess, that may contribute to why this word can be in this group also.

EDIT: 'pidama' should be also in this group, but here the first i -> e: 'pidama/pidada -> pean, pead, peab, etc...


ha-verbs - I could only think of two at the moment: 'teha'(to do), 'näha'(to see)
In the 'strong' form of this group h changes to g, but in the 'weak' form this g dissapears; but g or no g, an e is always added before the ending:

• ma-infinitive (strong form): tegema, nägema
• present (weak): teen, näen
• past (strong, but e -> i): tegin, nägin; 3rd: tegi, nägi
• passive (da-infinitive + kse(present) or -ti(past) is added to da-infinitiv after a is cut off): tehakse, tehti; nähakse, nähti
• -nud (weak, but e -> i) / -tud (a is cut off from da-infinitive & tud is added): teinud, tehtud; näinud, nähtud
• -des (a is cut off from da-infinitive & es is added): tehes, nähes
• -v (strong + v) / -tav (again from da-infinitive): tegev, tehtav; nägev, nähtav
• -mine (strong + mine): tegemine, nägemine

Finnish suggests that (some forms of) simple past may have also been based on the weak form once (which helps to understand where these teinud and näinud forms are coming from): ma tein, ma näin; although the last one can be confused with the present form of 'näima'(to seem)

[ainurakne]

... ja "-da infinitive" (ütlema -> öelda) meelde jätta.

I guess ütlema is actually a bit exceptional, because it has two different 'weak' forms: ütelda and öelda, and both stems can be used to make other 'weak' forms, it just depends on which one you like more (or which one sounds better in the context).

But actually it belongs to this group: stressed_syllable-LEMA / unstressed_syllable-ELDA (and this syllable ends with somekind of consonant):
'ütlema'(to say), 'tõmblema'(to twitch), 'pöörlema'(to rotate), 'kiitlema'(to vaunt, to strut out), 'väitlema'(?), 'töötlema'(to process), etc...

• ma-infinitive (strong) & da-infinitive (weak): ütlema & ütelda(öelda), tõmblema & tõmmelda, pöörlema & pöörelda, kiitlema & kiidelda, väitlema & väidelda, töötlema & töödelda, etc...
• present (strong): ütlen, tõmblen, pöörlen, kiitlen, väitlen, töötlen, etc...
• past (strong): ütlesin, tõmblesin, pöörlesin, kiitlesin, väitlesin, töötlesin, etc...
• passive (present - weak & past - weak): üteldakse(öeldakse) & üteldi(öeldi), tõmmeldakse & tõmmeldi, pööreldakse & pööreldi, kiideldakse & kiideldi, väideldakse & väideldi, töödeldakse & töödeldi, etc...
• -nud(weak) / -tud(weak): ütelnud(öelnud) & üteldud(öeldud), tõmmelnud & tõmmeldud, pöörelnud & pööreldud, kiidelnud & kiideldud, väidelnud & väideldud, töödelnud & töödeldud
• -des (weak): üteldes(öeldes), tõmmeldes, pööreldes, kiideldes, väideldes, töödeldes, etc...
• -v(strong) / -tav(weak): ütlev & üteldav(öeldav), tõmblev & tõmmeldav, pöörlev & pööreldav, kiitlev & kiideldav, väitlev & väideldav, töötlev & töödeldav, etc...
• -mine (strong): ütlemine, tõmblemine, pöörlemine, kiitlemine, väitlemine, töötlemine, etc...

I have also heard tõmblenud, pöörlenud, kiitlenud, väitlenud, töötlenud in colloquial language, but I can't find these forms from ÕS, so I wouldn't recommend using them in formal situations.

EDIT: mõtlema (to think) is similar to ütlema, which then isn't so exceptional after all:
mõtelda & mõelda; mõteldakse & mõeldakse; mõteldi & mõeldi; mõtelnud & mõelnud; mõteldud & mõeldud; mõteldes & mõeldes; mõteldav & mõeldav
But the shorter form seems to be more common.


I guess this is it for now - I can't separate any more clearly different and specific groups from the mass any more, at the moment. I hope I didn't clutter your thread too much