"Chinese language" in Chinese

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What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

漢語 Hanyu (Han language)
13
45%
普通話 Putonghua (Common speech)
1
3%
國語 Guoyu (National language)
0
No votes
華語 Huayu (Hua language)
4
14%
中國話 Zhongguohua (Chinese speech)
1
3%
中國語 Zhongguoyu (Chinese language)
3
10%
中文 Zhongwen (Chinese script)
5
17%
Others (Please share)
2
7%
 
Total votes: 29

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-08-30, 21:00

linguoboy wrote:
Pangu wrote:Not that I disagree with you but why do you think 國語 and its Nationalist connotations are bad?

I didn't say "bad", I said "problematic". ling's post illustrates some ways in which this is true.

Sorry for misunderstanding you. The word "problematic" tend to mean "bad" as opposed to be "good".

linguoboy wrote:
Pangu wrote:Also it's been more than 60 years since the Chinese civil war, shouldn't most people have moved on by now and look at things objectively?

Wouldn't that be nice! Yet the Opium War was 160 years ago, and, from what I see, a lot of people still haven't moved on from that.

Well, they should. Unless you personally went through something, there is simply no reason to hold onto hatred.

linguoboy wrote:
Pangu wrote:Why do you think 華 has more "attractive" connotations? What negative connotations does 漢 have?


The root meaning of 漢 is "a manly man". But a lot of stereotypically male qualities are negative, whereas 華 essentially means "the best of anything".

I don't believe that is the root meaning of 漢 but I am not certain. AFAIK 漢 came from Han Dynasty established by Liu Bang who was given the territory of 漢中 after overthrowing the Qin Dynasty. Chinese dynasties were named after the founder's home region until Yuan dynasty. Unless 漢中 meant "Manly man center" I doubt that's the root meaning of 漢 lol

linguoboy wrote:I'm surprised to hear that you find 漢 a more pleasing character than 華. 華 has beautiful bilateral symmetry and seems very well balanced overall, whereas--particularly in the font I'm using here--漢 looks so lopsided and top-heavy.

Just because 華 is symmetrical it doesn't mean it's more attractive. Can you imagine if every character is completely symmetrical? Eek!

If anything, 華 is much more "top-heavy" than 漢. 漢 fits better in the rule of thirds.

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Satsuma » 2012-08-31, 17:48

Pangu wrote:Mainland China - 漢語 Hanyu (Han language) / 普通話 Putonghua (Common speech) - Although Hanyu refers to Mandarin, as opposed to other Han dialects/languages such as Cantonese, it is generally used in context of non-Chinese languages, including those spoken by Chinese ethnic minorities. When referring to the Han dialects/languages, the term Putonghua is generally used instead.
Did you mix these two up? I've never heard Putonghua referred to anything other than Standard Mandarin.

I personally use 中文 the most often because that's the one that I hear used the most often. Which one should be used though? I think 中國話 and 中國語 sound the most neutral when mentioning all of the Chinese languages and dialects, and neutral's the best way to go as I see it. I have no issue calling Standard Mandarin 普通話, as that is a fitting description of what it is: a common language between the Chinese people. I like 漢語 as well, but it sounds a bit too similar to 韓語. I'm not really familiar with 國語 or 華語. They don't seem too bad, I just don't see or hear them frequently.

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Babelfish » 2012-08-31, 18:42

I didn't vote, b/c I feel each term should be used in slightly different situations (like many Chinese "synonymous" terms...). I use 中文 most often, but only if it is related to the script or at least the written language. 漢語 seems to me most appropriate for Mandarin, maybe even 北京語 if that's used... but maybe it's b/c I'm interested in linguistics, and therefore in the source of this dialect rather than its use, represented by 普通話 :) 華語 is IMHO appropriate for referring to all Chinese languages/dialects together.
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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-08-31, 19:52

Satsuma wrote:
Pangu wrote:Mainland China - 漢語 Hanyu (Han language) / 普通話 Putonghua (Common speech) - Although Hanyu refers to Mandarin, as opposed to other Han dialects/languages such as Cantonese, it is generally used in context of non-Chinese languages, including those spoken by Chinese ethnic minorities. When referring to the Han dialects/languages, the term Putonghua is generally used instead.
Did you mix these two up? I've never heard Putonghua referred to anything other than Standard Mandarin.

I didn't mix the two up but after re-reading what I wrote, I wasn't being as clear as I could.

What I wanted to say was that both Hanyu and Putonghua refer to Mandarin. However, Hanyu is used in the context of Han vs non-Han languages. For example, when we talk about Chinese vs Russian, we would use Hanyu. Putonghua is used in the context of different Chinese dialects/languages. For example, when we talk about Mandarin vs Cantonese, we would use Putonghua for Mandarin.

I hope that clears it up.

Satsuma wrote:I like 漢語 as well, but it sounds a bit too similar to 韓語.

No native-speaker would ever confuse 漢語 Hànyǔ with 韓語 Hányǔ because the Han there have two different tones. Also if you truly want to be careful to distinguish between the two, you can use 韓國語 instead.

Babelfish wrote:漢語 seems to me most appropriate for Mandarin, maybe even 北京語 if that's used... but maybe it's b/c I'm interested in linguistics, and therefore in the source of this dialect rather than its use, represented by 普通話 :)

The ACTUAL 北京話 is not the same as 普通話. The latter is only BASED ON the former. :)

Babelfish wrote:華語 is IMHO appropriate for referring to all Chinese languages/dialects together.

That depends on your definition of 中華. Since Qing Dynasty, 中華 included more than just the Han ethnic group. More specifically, it included the Manchu, Tibetans, Mongolians and Hui. During the Republican era the concept remained the same and during the PRC era the recognized ethnic group expanded to the current 56. Therefore "華語" would technically include languages/dialects of all 56 ethnic groups.

But I understand some people have their own definition of 中華.

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby azhong » 2012-09-03, 2:57

I had chosen "the others"; I think this thread is very creative and I like it. Perhaps the survey result can be sent to the UN for their reference?

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-09-03, 3:34

azhong wrote:I had chosen "the others"; I think this thread is very creative and I like it. Perhaps the survey result can be sent to the UN for their reference?

Since you have chosen "Others", what do you think it should be called?

Unfortunately sending it to UN won't do much. UN can't force any nation to change what they call their own language.

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby モモンガ » 2012-09-04, 21:02

I have voted for 华语


国语
hmm... isn't it simply a word for 'national language'?

我会国语
said by me would mean 'I can speak standard Polish', right?


well, talking about nationalists... calling them mafia would hurt Don Corleone's feelings, I guess.
They killed plenty of people, had friends among criminals and what not.
When one city was starving they didn't help them because 'they are only interested in military and not common folk.
or something like this, I don't know.
Not even mentioning the fact that when Japanese attacked China, they only licked their butts instead of fighting.
Anyway they were not very nice guys.
fortunately it's all gone now.

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-09-04, 22:54

モモンガ wrote:I have voted for 华语


国语
hmm... isn't it simply a word for 'national language'?

我会国语
said by me would mean 'I can speak standard Polish', right?

"Standard Polish" would be 標準波蘭語 in Chinese. Chinese speakers, even those in mainland, should understand that 國語 refers to Mandarin, even if the word itself literally just means "national language".

モモンガ wrote:well, talking about nationalists... calling them mafia would hurt Don Corleone's feelings, I guess.
They killed plenty of people, had friends among criminals and what not.
When one city was starving they didn't help them because 'they are only interested in military and not common folk.
or something like this, I don't know.
Not even mentioning the fact that when Japanese attacked China, they only licked their butts instead of fighting.
Anyway they were not very nice guys.
fortunately it's all gone now.

:para:

Unfortunately history isn't so black and white.

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Serafín » 2012-09-08, 19:27

ling wrote:(note that the term has been adopted into Hong Kong Cantonese, also to refer to Mandarin: pou tung wa)
And they mock it by calling it bōudūng gwā 煲冬瓜 ("boiling winter melons"). :P

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-21, 7:12

linguoboy wrote:In general, I prefer compounds in 華 to those in 漢 (it's a prettier character with more attractive connotations), but 漢族 is the only widely accepted term for the ethnic group, so we're kind of stuck with 漢.
I prefer 華語 myself for much the same reasons as these. I think 漢語 sounds too formal and academic. 華語 is also what my textbook uses (printed in Taiwan, traditional characters).
ling wrote:Hanyu sounds either too mainlandy or too scholarly to me.

Putonghua is worse: it sounds downright communist to me (note that the term has been adopted into Hong Kong Cantonese, also to refer to Mandarin: pou tung wa). It's so Beijingy that I find myself mocking it by adding an exaggerated -er ending on it!

I like the neutrality of Huayu. It's commonly and successfully used in Southeast Asia to refer to Mandarin.
I agree with all of the above.

I absolutely refuse to call it 普通話 for political reasons. It reminds me of the PRC's campaign to push Mandarin on everyone and other distasteful policies they have. I'd rather not use it if I don't have to.
Pangu wrote:Why do you think 華 has more "attractive" connotations? What negative connotations does 漢 have?
Personally I like the sound of the syllable huá better than hàn, and to me 華 has the connotation of Chinese culture and its influence whereas 漢 is just the name of an ethnic group. That's also another problem with 漢語: it sounds like the language is the exclusive domain of the Han Chinese, when other ethnicities in China speak it too. It's not neutral enough to me.

About other candidates:

國語 is too vague since all it means is "national language". It sounds too Taiwan-specific as well.

中文 is also vague, since it refers to the Chinese macrolanguage as a whole instead of just Mandarin. When I want to specify, I say 官話 or 北方話 although the former doesn't seem to be all that common in modern usage.
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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-21, 9:48

Guillermo wrote:I absolutely refuse to call it 普通話 for political reasons. It reminds me of the PRC's campaign to push Mandarin on everyone and other distasteful policies they have. I'd rather not use it if I don't have to.

You understand that promotion Mandarin as the national spoken language has more or less existed since Qing dynasty right? It was made formal during the Republican era (1911-1949) and Mandarin was still promoted in Taiwan as well after the Nationalists retreated there.

Also are you NOT for China having a national spoken language?

Guillermo wrote:Personally I like the sound of the syllable huá better than hàn, and to me 華 has the connotation of Chinese culture and its influence whereas 漢 is just the name of an ethnic group. That's also another problem with 漢語: it sounds like the language is the exclusive domain of the Han Chinese, when other ethnicities in China speak it too. It's not neutral enough to me.

Huá sounds soft and Hàn sounds strong to me, which is why I prefer to latter when it comes to anything that represents a nation.

Throughout majority of Chinese history 華 pretty much = 漢. So to say "漢 is just the name of an ethnic group" is really understating it. Yes, other ethnic groups speak it too but it is still the language of the 漢 much like many people speak English but it doesn't change the fact that it is the language of the English and not "American" or "Canadian".

Guillermo wrote:國語 is too vague since all it means is "national language". It sounds too Taiwan-specific as well.

Keep in mind that we're discussing what "Chinese" should be called in CHINESE, not English or other languages. In Taiwan, where Chinese IS called 國語, no one would get confused as to which language you're referring to. Also it should NOT be "Taiwan-specific" because this term was coined in the early 1900's when Mandarin was chosen as the official spoken Chinese throughout China.

Guillermo wrote:中文 is also vague, since it refers to the Chinese macrolanguage as a whole instead of just Mandarin. When I want to specify, I say 官話 or 北方話 although the former doesn't seem to be all that common in modern usage.

官話 hasn't been used much since Qing dynasty :P

北方話 isn't specific enough because it could be referring to any northern dialect from 東北 to 北京 to 西北 and none of it is "Mandarin".

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Serafín » 2012-10-21, 21:21

I voted for 華語.
Guillermo wrote:It reminds me of the PRC's campaign to push Mandarin on everyone and other distasteful policies they have. I'd rather not use it if I don't have to.
Then you know nothing of what the ROC did against Min Nan and the Austronesian languages. It was the same on both sides of the strait.
國語 is too vague since all it means is "national language". It sounds too Taiwan-specific as well.
It's used a lot in Hong Kong too. And you can still see it used in a mainland China context.
Pangu wrote:官話 hasn't been used much since Qing dynasty :P
Academics use it.
北方話 isn't specific enough because it could be referring to any northern dialect from 東北 to 北京 to 西北 and none of it is "Mandarin".
It depends on the definition of the English word "Mandarin" you mean. All of that can be Mandarin, if by "Mandarin" you just mean northern dialects (what is not Cantonese/Hakka/Wu/Min Nan/etc.).

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-21, 21:27

Serafín wrote:
Pangu wrote:官話 hasn't been used much since Qing dynasty :P
Academics use it.

Care to provide an example?
Serafín wrote:
北方話 isn't specific enough because it could be referring to any northern dialect from 東北 to 北京 to 西北 and none of it is "Mandarin".
It depends on the definition of the English word "Mandarin" you mean. All of that can be Mandarin, if by "Mandarin" you just mean northern dialects (what is not Cantonese/Hakka/Wu/Min Nan/etc.).

Mandarin = official spoken Chinese, in other word 普通話/國語 which is definitely NOT 北京話,東北話,西北話 where as the latter three are all under the 北方話 group.

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-21, 23:27

Pangu wrote:You understand that promotion Mandarin as the national spoken language has more or less existed since Qing dynasty right? It was made formal during the Republican era (1911-1949) and Mandarin was still promoted in Taiwan as well after the Nationalists retreated there.

Serafin wrote:Then you know nothing of what the ROC did against Min Nan and the Austronesian languages. It was the same on both sides of the strait.

Yes, I am well aware of that and know that Taiwan does the same thing. You shouldn't assume I'm ignorant about something just because I omitted to mention it.
Also are you NOT for China having a national spoken language?
No. When did I ever say that?

I am all for promoting Mandarin as the national language of China, as long as other dialects of Chinese don't get neglected, which I feel they are.
Huá sounds soft and Hàn sounds strong to me, which is why I prefer to latter when it comes to anything that represents a nation.
Well, I feel differently since I have different feelings about Chinese nationalism as a foreigner.
Throughout majority of Chinese history 華 pretty much = 漢. So to say "漢 is just the name of an ethnic group" is really understating it. Yes, other ethnic groups speak it too but it is still the language of the 漢 much like many people speak English but it doesn't change the fact that it is the language of the English and not "American" or "Canadian".
Calling it the language of the English when ten times as many Americans speak it is pretty silly if you ask me. Yes, the language originated in England but I say it belongs to anyone who speaks it natively. But we still call it English because of history.
Keep in mind that we're discussing what "Chinese" should be called in CHINESE, not English or other languages. In Taiwan, where Chinese IS called 國語, no one would get confused as to which language you're referring to. Also it should NOT be "Taiwan-specific" because this term was coined in the early 1900's when Mandarin was chosen as the official spoken Chinese throughout China.
What?

I was talking about what 國語 means in Chinese, and I said it was used in Taiwan. I didn't say it couldn't be used elsewhere. If the PRC and ROC were reunited, they probably would use the term 國語, I think. But let's not turn this into a political debate too.
官話 hasn't been used much since Qing dynasty :P
Yes, that's what I thought. But I don't know any other good term for Mandarin that isn't politically loaded.
北方話 isn't specific enough because it could be referring to any northern dialect from 東北 to 北京 to 西北 and none of it is "Mandarin".
Yes, that's a problem too and one reason why I prefer 官話 even if it's rarely used anymore.
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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-22, 1:09

Guillermo wrote:
Also are you NOT for China having a national spoken language?
No. When did I ever say that?

I am all for promoting Mandarin as the national language of China, as long as other dialects of Chinese don't get neglected, which I feel they are.

When you promote one dialect over others, of course others will feel neglected. How would you propose promoting Mandarin while not neglecting dialects?

Guillermo wrote:
Huá sounds soft and Hàn sounds strong to me, which is why I prefer to latter when it comes to anything that represents a nation.
Well, I feel differently since I have different feelings about Chinese nationalism as a foreigner.

So you prefer China to be "soft" or at least not strong?

Guillermo wrote:
Throughout majority of Chinese history 華 pretty much = 漢. So to say "漢 is just the name of an ethnic group" is really understating it. Yes, other ethnic groups speak it too but it is still the language of the 漢 much like many people speak English but it doesn't change the fact that it is the language of the English and not "American" or "Canadian".
Calling it the language of the English when ten times as many Americans speak it is pretty silly if you ask me. Yes, the language originated in England but I say it belongs to anyone who speaks it natively. But we still call it English because of history.

No, just because someone uses something more it doesn't automatically means it belongs to them. If we were neighbors and I constantly borrow your lawnmower until I used it more, does it mean it automatically belongs to me?

Guillermo wrote:
Keep in mind that we're discussing what "Chinese" should be called in CHINESE, not English or other languages. In Taiwan, where Chinese IS called 國語, no one would get confused as to which language you're referring to. Also it should NOT be "Taiwan-specific" because this term was coined in the early 1900's when Mandarin was chosen as the official spoken Chinese throughout China.
What?

I was talking about what 國語 means in Chinese, and I said it was used in Taiwan. I didn't say it couldn't be used elsewhere. If the PRC and ROC were reunited, they probably would use the term 國語, I think. But let's not turn this into a political debate too.

You said:

國語 is too vague since all it means is "national language".

So I responded with that 國語 is NOT too vague in Chinese.

Guillermo wrote:
官話 hasn't been used much since Qing dynasty :P
Yes, that's what I thought. But I don't know any other good term for Mandarin that isn't politically loaded.

There are many options (too many if you ask me) you can choose from the poll. Don't worry too much about other people being over-sensitive.

Guillermo wrote:
北方話 isn't specific enough because it could be referring to any northern dialect from 東北 to 北京 to 西北 and none of it is "Mandarin".
Yes, that's a problem too and one reason why I prefer 官話 even if it's rarely used anymore.

Technically 官話 from Qing Dynasty will be different from modern Mandarin today. Just look at how much English has changed in the last 100-200 years.

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-22, 2:31

Pangu wrote:When you promote one dialect over others, of course others will feel neglected. How would you propose promoting Mandarin while not neglecting dialects?
Have Mandarin be official across the entire country and let dialects be co-official in the provinces they are spoken in. Carry out education in both dialects and standard Chinese.

Also, stop doing things like this. It's very unnecessary to tell people how to speak. There is no harm in letting people speak their own dialect amongst themselves as long as they can speak Mandarin when called for.
So you prefer China to be "soft" or at least not strong?
No. I don't want China to be weak, nor do I want it to be belligerently nationalist. It's possible to be a strong country because of your cultural influence, not just military power or whatever else people think strength means.
No, just because someone uses something more it doesn't automatically means it belongs to them. If we were neighbors and I constantly borrow your lawnmower until I used it more, does it mean it automatically belongs to me?
I didn't "borrow" the English language from anyone. I grew up speaking it. Your analogy might work for a second language speaker, but not for me.
You said:

國語 is too vague since all it means is "national language".

So I responded with that 國語 is NOT too vague in Chinese.
Okay, I stand corrected. That is not its only meaning. That is just its literal meaning.

Also, please do not use all caps. It is the Internet equivalent of shouting.
There are many options (too many if you ask me) you can choose from the poll. Don't worry too much about other people being over-sensitive.
Well, there are a lot of names for the Chinese language. It's hard not to be sensitive when there are so many complex questions of nationalism and politics involved whenever discussing China.
Technically 官話 from Qing Dynasty will be different from modern Mandarin today. Just look at how much English has changed in the last 100-200 years.
That's true.
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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-22, 2:56

Guillermo wrote:There is no harm in letting people speak their own dialect amongst themselves as long as they can speak Mandarin when called for.

I agree with that statement but I'm not sure about forcing children to learn the dialect of the province they live in.

People move around frequently nowadays so you may have a child whose father was from Sichuan, mother from Jiangsu but they live in Guangdong. Does that mean their child must learn Cantonese?

Also there are "sub-dialects" for all dialects, who's to say which one is to be taught? How about "in-between dialects" like Teochew which IMHO is kind of like between Min and Yue.

How about places like Hainan where some speak Min, some speak Cantonese. Do children learn both?

I can go and on and on but the point is, it will be messy and I don't see any potential solutions.

Guillermo wrote:
So you prefer China to be "soft" or at least not strong?
No. I don't want China to be weak, nor do I want it to be belligerently nationalist. It's possible to be a strong country because of your cultural influence, not just military power or whatever else people think strength means.

Unfortunately in the real world, military power + financial control = strength. It has always been this way from the Roman Empire to the United States, from Han Dynasty to the People's Republic.

Guillermo wrote:
No, just because someone uses something more it doesn't automatically means it belongs to them. If we were neighbors and I constantly borrow your lawnmower until I used it more, does it mean it automatically belongs to me?
I didn't "borrow" the English language from anyone. I grew up speaking it. Your analogy might work for a second language speaker, but not for me.

Just because you grew up speaking it doesn't change what it is. It is still English. Americans speaking English doesn't make it American no more than Japanese using Hanzi making it "Japanese characters" or Vietnamese using Roman letters making it "Vietnamese letters".

Guillermo wrote:Also, please do not use all caps. It is the Internet equivalent of shouting.

I have been on the Internet for more than a day, I know that. I only typed selective words in caps to emphasize them. In real life, I probably would've also said those words slightly louder than the rest.

Guillermo wrote:Well, there are a lot of names for the Chinese language. It's hard not to be sensitive when there are so many complex questions of nationalism and politics involved whenever discussing China.

People need to get over it.

Guillermo
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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-22, 3:31

Pangu wrote:I agree with that statement but I'm not sure about forcing children to learn the dialect of the province they live in.

People move around frequently nowadays so you may have a child whose father was from Sichuan, mother from Jiangsu but they live in Guangdong. Does that mean their child must learn Cantonese?

Also there are "sub-dialects" for all dialects, who's to say which one is to be taught? How about "in-between dialects" like Teochew which IMHO is kind of like between Min and Yue.

How about places like Hainan where some speak Min, some speak Cantonese. Do children learn both?

I can go and on and on but the point is, it will be messy and I don't see any potential solutions.
Those are fair points. I think the problem is that dialects are not standardized in the way that Mandarin is.

I don't think children who are not native speakers should necessarily have to learn them, or that it has be an even split between Mandarin and dialects in education. I would just like to see more of an effort go into using them in the public sphere (such as education) so that they don't suffer the way Occitan and Welsh did.
Unfortunately in the real world, military power + financial control = strength. It has always been this way from the Roman Empire to the United States, from Han Dynasty to the People's Republic.
That's true, but cultural influence or "soft power" is important too.

I have no problem with China having a strong military as long as it's not used to threaten its neighbours. That's what I mean by belligerent nationalism. Some Chinese people are very chauvinistic and I disagree that China is better than any other nation or deserves special privileges just because it's big. Same with the United States.
Just because you grew up speaking it doesn't change what it is. It is still English. Americans speaking English doesn't make it American no more than Japanese using Hanzi making it "Japanese characters" or Vietnamese using Roman letters making it "Vietnamese letters".
I have no problem calling it English, I just disagree that it belongs to the English simply because it originated in their country. I think a language belongs to everyone who speaks it. But this is just a matter of opinion.
I have been on the Internet for more than a day, I know that. I only typed selective words in caps to emphasize them. In real life, I probably would've also said those words slightly louder than the rest.
I suggest italics.
People need to get over it.
I totally agree.
native: [flag]en[/flag]
médiocre: [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
生疏: [flag]zh[/flag] [flag]de[/flag]
基本的: [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]hi[/flag]
começando: [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ko[/flag]

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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Pangu » 2012-10-22, 13:01

Guillermo wrote:I don't think children who are not native speakers should necessarily have to learn them, or that it has be an even split between Mandarin and dialects in education. I would just like to see more of an effort go into using them in the public sphere (such as education) so that they don't suffer the way Occitan and Welsh did.

I believe most people would want that but the problem arises as soon as we try to implement any solid solutions as we have all just witnessed. So pointing out a problem that majority of people are aware of isn't doing anything good if there are no solutions provided.

Guillermo wrote:I have no problem with China having a strong military as long as it's not used to threaten its neighbours. That's what I mean by belligerent nationalism. Some Chinese people are very chauvinistic and I disagree that China is better than any other nation or deserves special privileges just because it's big. Same with the United States.

Again, from the Roman Empire to the United States, from Han Dynasty to the People's Republic, when hasn't someone felt threatened by a strong neighbor? It's just a fact of life.

Guillermo wrote:I have no problem calling it English, I just disagree that it belongs to the English simply because it originated in their country. I think a language belongs to everyone who speaks it. But this is just a matter of opinion.

Ownership is different from acknowledging the origin of something. I don't believe you can truly "own" a language anyway.

Guillermo wrote:I suggest italics.

If I would like to spend the extra time typing the brackets and the i then I would. But I see no problems with typing emphasized words in CAPs.

Guillermo
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Re: What do you think "Chinese" should be called in Chinese?

Postby Guillermo » 2012-10-22, 21:42

Pangu wrote:I believe most people would want that but the problem arises as soon as we try to implement any solid solutions as we have all just witnessed. So pointing out a problem that majority of people are aware of isn't doing anything good if there are no solutions provided.
Well, we don't know that all those problems will happen because we haven't tried it yet. I think a good solution would be to standardize the written form of languages that don't already have one, like Wu, Minnan, Gan, etc.
Again, from the Roman Empire to the United States, from Han Dynasty to the People's Republic, when hasn't someone felt threatened by a strong neighbor? It's just a fact of life.
Deterrence is fine. I meant actually using force like occupying disputed islands such as Diaoyu (or Taiwan for that matter). But that's not a likely scenario so let's just forget about it.
Ownership is different from acknowledging the origin of something. I don't believe you can truly "own" a language anyway.
Weren't you just saying the English language "belongs" to the British? But whatever. It's not important and I don't want to expend any more energy on this point.
If I would like to spend the extra time typing the brackets and the i then I would. But I see no problems with typing emphasized words in CAPs.
Some people find it rude, that's all. It's pretty easy to click on the i icon at the top of the window.
native: [flag]en[/flag]
médiocre: [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
生疏: [flag]zh[/flag] [flag]de[/flag]
基本的: [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]hi[/flag]
começando: [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ko[/flag]


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