Racism

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator:Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:
Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-09-08, 3:19

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I'm not sure what the concentration of South Asians is like where you live, but I suspect it's below the critical threshold for where racism turns ugly like that.

Yeah, I'm sure that it is and that this is indeed why racism (against Indians) is much less obvious down here.

I just happened to be thinking about this today, and I'm starting to wonder whether maybe the reason (for the difference in how South Asians are treated here as opposed to New Jersey or something) is something else. Here in Austin, it seems to me as if most kids leave town as soon as they get to go to college, and few adults stay here for a long time unless they intend to retire here. As a result, most people in Austin are not actually people who lived in Austin from childhood to adulthood but rather people who immigrated from other parts of the US or from other countries altogether. Perhaps this means that people in Austin don't feel attachment to Austin or fear the effect of immigration on it in the same way that New Jerseyites (for example) may feel attachment to their home towns or fear how immigration is affecting them.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts:2672
Joined:2011-09-12, 1:17
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-17, 21:30

My fellow liberals. Now that the shock has worn off, maybe we should start doing some self-reflecting. Linguist John McWhorter provides a starting point.

The idea that America ‘doesn’t talk about’ racism is absurd

"The Martian anthropologist would recognize no difference between the way those accused of being witches were treated in 17th-century Salem, Mass., and the way many innocent people are being accused of “racism” today. Those appalled by the way people were tarred with the Communist label in the 1940s and 1950s must recognize that America has blundered into the same censorious mob mentality in assailing as “racists,” just recently, people such as Ellen DeGeneres — for Photoshopping herself riding on Jamaican gold medal sprinter Usain Bolt’s back in celebration of his win — and Hillary Clinton — for referring to the black men terrorizing poor black neighborhoods as “superpredators” in describing plans for protecting people in those neighborhoods from such crime."
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-11-17, 22:48

Between Chomsky, McWhorter, Labov, and Pinker, I'm beginning to think maybe linguists should just stick to linguistics and leave the politics and society to political scientists and sociologists.

How do you come up with a bullshit McCarthyism analogy one week after someone just won the presidency on a platform of a explicit racism? Does DeGeneres still have a tv show? Did Clinton continue to have a political career after her "superpredator" comments? Being labeled a "racist" seems to be even less damaging to White people in power than being labeled a sexual predator (and we just elected one of those to the presidency, too).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-18, 0:41

Yasna wrote:My fellow liberals. Now that the shock has worn off

For you it may have worn off, but you're not the one the Ku Klux Klan could attack based on something as superficial as your skin color. For me, the shock has only just started. I'm still terrified and incredibly frustrated that no one seems to want to talk much about practical solutions for dealing with the racism we're seeing now in any way.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts:2672
Joined:2011-09-12, 1:17
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-18, 4:58

linguoboy wrote:How do you come up with a bullshit McCarthyism analogy one week after someone just won the presidency on a platform of a explicit racism? Does DeGeneres still have a tv show? Did Clinton continue to have a political career after her "superpredator" comments? Being labeled a "racist" seems to be even less damaging to White people in power than being labeled a sexual predator (and we just elected one of those to the presidency, too).

We live in such a polarized country that even if you are tarred and feathered, most members of your own tribe will still support you. Look at Donald Trump himself. If someone ran a campaign like his which cozied up to an authoritarian rival country back in the 50's, they would have been banished from political life by broad consensus, not elected president. The question is whether the word racist is thrown around too casually these days, as the word communist was back in the day.

vijayjohn wrote:For you it may have worn off, but you're not the one the Ku Klux Klan could attack based on something as superficial as your skin color. For me, the shock has only just started. I'm still terrified and incredibly frustrated that no one seems to want to talk much about practical solutions for dealing with the racism we're seeing now in any way.

Local action is generally most effective, so get involved with your community.

Keep things in perspective. You aren't terrified of getting cancer, are you? Yet it's a greater threat to your well-being than racism.

Be resilient. If you get called a slur it's not the end of the world. I'm pretty sure I've experienced much worse racism than you ever have, but I don't let it rule my life.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-18, 5:08

Yasna wrote:The question is whether the word racist is thrown around too casually these days, as the word communist was back in the day.

No. Next question.
Local action is generally most effective, so get involved with your community.

...To do what?
Keep things in perspective. You aren't terrified of getting cancer, are you? Yet it's a greater threat to your well-being than racism.

Being killed by racists is just as much a threat to my well-being as cancer is. At least if I had cancer, there would be some interval between the point when I knew I was in danger and my actual death.
Be resilient. If you get called a slur it's not the end of the world. I'm pretty sure I've experienced much worse racism than you ever have, but I don't let it rule my life.

I'm not talking about being called a slur.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-11-18, 17:32

Yasna wrote:The question is whether the word racist is thrown around too casually these days, as the word communist was back in the day.

That's a question and whether it's one worth answering depends on what your goals are. Regardless, there are ways to answer "yes" which don't involve invoking a Red Scare that violated people's civil rights and ended their careers. So if that's really his point, he picked a lousy way to make it. And if his ultimate goal is to convince people to stop labeling others "racist" so much, there are better ways to do that as well.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-19, 19:09

The question of whether accusations of racism today are comparable to the Red Scare seems ironic to me since the person being considered for the position of Deputy National Security Advisor to Donald Chump has implied that something comparable to the Red Scare should be used against Muslims.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts:2672
Joined:2011-09-12, 1:17
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-21, 1:37

vijayjohn wrote:No. Next question.

Your level of confidence in that answer is remarkable.


...To do what?

Meet people, be part of the community. It's a lot more difficult (though not impossible) to hold bigoted views towards groups who you have personal relationships with. Look at the positive effect we witnessed from so many people realizing they had a gay nephew, or cousin, or friend as more and more people came out of the closet.

Being killed by racists is just as much a threat to my well-being as cancer is. At least if I had cancer, there would be some interval between the point when I knew I was in danger and my actual death.

You've got your probabilities all wrong. As bad as Trump is, he's no Nazi.

I'm not talking about being called a slur.

Unless the absolute worst scenario comes to pass, my point stands.

linguoboy wrote:That's a question and whether it's one worth answering depends on what your goals are. Regardless, there are ways to answer "yes" which don't involve invoking a Red Scare that violated people's civil rights and ended their careers. So if that's really his point, he picked a lousy way to make it. And if his ultimate goal is to convince people to stop labeling others "racist" so much, there are better ways to do that as well.

I think he made his point extremely effectively in the article. Despite it being an imperfect analogy (as most analogies are), the numerous parallels between the Red Scare and today's racism witch hunt are in plain sight.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-21, 1:41

It's not so much either Chump or "my community" (whatever that even means) that I'm worried about as it is Chump's supporters. A lot of them are indeed neo-Nazis.
Yasna wrote:Your level of confidence in that answer is remarkable.

Because it's true.
As bad as Trump is, he's no Nazi.

Your level of confidence in that answer is remarkable.

Unless the absolute worst scenario comes to pass, my point stands.

We're already seeing plenty of evidence of the police targeting and then murdering POCs, the Ku Klux Klan celebrating Chump's victory, literally thousands of people joining and/or forming part of such organizations...I'm really not sure what you imagine "the absolute worst scenario" to be. It's pretty fucking bad already as it is, and it's no secret, either.
I think he made his point extremely effectively in the article. Despite it being an imperfect analogy (as most analogies are), the numerous parallels between the Red Scare and today's racism witch hunt are in plain sight.

Yeah, I guess that's why women are being told to hang themselves with their hijabs, black people are getting death threats, and gay people are getting glass bottles thrown in their faces. No, it's totally the racists who are the victims here!

Seriously, where do you even get this shit?

User avatar
TheStrayCat
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:2778
Joined:2010-12-23, 11:49
Real Name:Max
Gender:male
Location:Brooklyn, New York
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby TheStrayCat » 2016-11-21, 3:17

vijayjohn wrote:Yeah, I guess that's why women are being told to hang themselves with their hijabs, black people are getting death threats, and gay people are getting glass bottles thrown in their faces. No, it's totally the racists who are the victims here!


The thing is that many people who are simply not informed enough about the racial history of the States and thus prone to making racially biased judgements without meaning any real harm are often labeled as "implicit racists". Those can be people from predominantly white suburbs or rural areas, or just newcoming European/Asian immigrants. Calling them racists and basically grouping them together with KKK members and real racists isn't likely to be a productive way to reduce tension (as it's also demonstrated in the article linguoboy posted above), let alone that it might put them off supporting Democratic/liberal politicians.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts:10890
Joined:2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)

Re: Racism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-11-21, 3:40

I'm pretty sure I've experienced much worse racism than you ever have, but I don't let it rule my life.
Dude aren't you German or something.
[ˈmoːdjeðɑŋk]

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-21, 4:30

I don't think he knows what institutional racism is.
TheStrayCat wrote:The thing is that many people who are simply not informed enough about the racial history of the States and thus prone to making racially biased judgements without meaning any real harm are often labeled as "implicit racists". Those can be people from predominantly white suburbs or rural areas, or just newcoming European/Asian immigrants. Calling them racists and basically grouping them together with KKK members and real racists isn't likely to be a productive way to reduce tension (as it's also demonstrated in the article linguoboy posted above), let alone that it might put them off supporting Democratic/liberal politicians.

I don't agree that implicit racism is "not real" racism, and I find the ignorance behind it to be willful given that there are plenty of resources out there, both online and offline, for anyone who wants to learn about racism and how not to practice it on a personal level. I don't believe that it is the responsibility of those of us who are victimized by institutional racism to correct the problem.

I mean, this is 2016, yet someone who claims Middle Easterners live in the Middle Ages can spout equally (if not more) outdated bullshit like "calling out racism is a witch hunt!"? That's just lazy.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts:2672
Joined:2011-09-12, 1:17
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-22, 2:43

vijayjohn wrote:We're already seeing plenty of evidence of the police targeting and then murdering POCs, the Ku Klux Klan celebrating Chump's victory, literally thousands of people joining and/or forming part of such organizations...I'm really not sure what you imagine "the absolute worst scenario" to be. It's pretty fucking bad already as it is, and it's no secret, either.

The worst scenario is genocide of course. Police shootings are nothing new. In a country of 320 million, it's completely unremarkable that you can find 5 or 10 thousand people racist and nutty enough to join the Klan. Yes, some racist idiots feel emboldened, but there is no significant acceptance in this country for a racist ideology or a racist society. By all means be concerned and vigilant, but there's no reason to panic. The far bigger danger is that he stumbles into a war with a major power in which case we are all fucked.

Yeah, I guess that's why women are being told to hang themselves with their hijabs, black people are getting death threats, and gay people are getting glass bottles thrown in their faces. No, it's totally the racists who are the victims here!

Seriously, where do you even get this shit?

What a ridiculous non-sequitur. Are you seriously so intellectually narrow-minded that you can't accept that there are victims on both sides? And for the record I don't even think it's the immediate repercussions of false racism accusations that are most concerning, but rather the social repercussions, like weakened social cohesion and the rise of far right parties (not implying that there aren't other causes).

mōdgethanc wrote:Dude aren't you German or something.

You'd never know it from the SJW crowd, but there is severe racism towards whites in America, especially in run-down former manufacturing cities where most whites left (white flight) and the ones that stayed became a minority.

vijayjohn wrote:I don't think he knows what institutional racism is.

Aren't you just the perfect embodiment of the condescending liberal.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-22, 3:16

Yasna wrote:The worst scenario is genocide of course.

Which arguably is already happening.
Police shootings are nothing new.

Except that now they're happening every day.
In a country of 320 million, it's completely unremarkable that you can find 5 or 10 thousand people racist and nutty enough to join the Klan.

But it's not unremarkable that they're gaining members and that they think our next president is going to give them a free hand. It's also not unremarkable that they're strongest in the South and the Midwest and I live in the South.
Yes, some racist idiots feel emboldened, but there is no significant acceptance in this country for a racist ideology or a racist society.

This election we just had has already proven you wrong.
By all means be concerned and vigilant, but there's no reason to panic.

Who said I was panicking?
What a ridiculous non-sequitur. Are you seriously so intellectually narrow-minded that you can't accept that there are victims on both sides? [...] You'd never know it from the SJW crowd, but there is severe racism towards whites in America, especially in run-down former manufacturing cities where most whites left (white flight) and the ones that stayed became a minority.

vijayjohn wrote:I don't think he knows what institutional racism is.

Aren't you just the perfect embodiment of the condescending liberal.

And you just proved that I was right to guess that you don't know what it is.

The funny thing is, it wasn't even intended to be condescending at all, just an explanation of why on Earth you would say something like that. If you were aware of all the privileges that you have as a white person and that none of us POCs do, I am certain that you would not say this. And that's a problem.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts:2672
Joined:2011-09-12, 1:17
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-22, 4:11

vijayjohn wrote:Which arguably is already happening.

What?! Do you know what genocide is?

This election we just had has already proven you wrong.

Christ, the bubble you live in is thick. Here you go:
http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/11/michael-moore-millions-of-trump-voters-elected-obama-twice-theyre-not-racist-video/
Michael Moore: “You have to accept that millions of people who voted for Barack Obama, some of them once, some of them twice, changed their minds this time. They’re not racist. They twice voted for a man whose middle name is Hussein. That’s the America you live in.”

And Rammesh Ponnuru:

“And as I’ve noted in this space before, claims that bigotry are a major motivation for Trump voters have a thin evidentiary basis: They classify conservative views that aren’t necessarily rooted in racial hostility as ‘racial resentment,’ they ignore the decline in bigotry over time, and they overgeneralize about a very large and in some ways diverse group of people.”

Who said I was panicking?

Do you even believe that nonsense you said earlier about genocide happening now in our country? If you do, maybe you should be panicking.

And you just proved that I was right to guess that you don't know what it is.

:lol: You just love to jump the gun. Just because I don't use your narrowed definition of racism (i.e. black people can't be racist!) doesn't mean I don't know what institutional racism is.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-22, 4:17

Yasna wrote:What?! Do you know what genocide is?

Yes, and there has already been evidence of police officers attempting just that and being encouraged by their superiors to do that.
Christ, the bubble you live in is thick.

I could say the same of your own. A lot of Chump voters explicitly say they support the racist views he's expressed (to say the least).
:lol: You just love to jump the gun. Just because I don't use your narrowed definition of racism (i.e. black people can't be racist!) doesn't mean I don't know what institutional racism is.

I'm not jumping the gun. I still don't think you really know what it is. I think you think it's just an idea that has no basis in fact because you apparently haven't bothered to research the facts surrounding this issue.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts:2672
Joined:2011-09-12, 1:17
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-22, 5:12

vijayjohn wrote:Yes, and there has already been evidence of police officers attempting just that and being encouraged by their superiors to do that.

Well if you're going to make such an outrageous claim, how about a source?

I could say the same of your own.

Go ahead, name my bubble then. I can name yours: smack in the middle of the regressive left.

A lot of Chump voters explicitly say they support the racist views he's expressed (to say the least).

And how many is "a lot"? I hope you've got some statistics to back it up. You know, something to counter the statistics showing that millions of Americans who voted for a black man with the middle name Hussein voted for Trump, or how 29% of Hispanics and Asians voted Trump. What terrible racists!

I'm not jumping the gun. I still don't think you really know what it is. I think you think it's just an idea that has no basis in fact because you apparently haven't bothered to research the facts surrounding this issue.

Once again, your assumption is dead wrong. I fully recognize that institutional racism is a real phenomenon and have read about many instances of it.

And are you ignorant of how the word "racism" is used by most English speakers, including many black Americans, without the constraint of the perpetrator having to belong to the dominant racial group?
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-23, 4:06

Yasna wrote:Well if you're going to make such an outrageous claim, how about a source?

There's plenty of sources to support it.
Go ahead, name my bubble then.

No. I'm not interested in assigning you a label. I don't care which one you want to assign to me, either.
And how many is "a lot"? I hope you've got some statistics to back it up. You know, something to counter the statistics showing that millions of Americans who voted for a black man with the middle name Hussein voted for Trump, or how 29% of Hispanics and Asians voted Trump. What terrible racists!

Actually yes, some of them really are racist in the sense that they display (to varying degrees) the same racist attitudes towards other POCs that white racists do. Some of them also internalize racist stereotypes. I know both of these things for a fact because some of these people are my own relatives.

But to get back to your question: about 58% of Chump supporters admit having unfavorable views of Islam; 76% of Republicans support Chump's proposal to ban all Muslims from entering the US; 70% of Republicans said that leaving aside the way Chump phrased it, his characterization of Mexicans as "rapists" who were "bringing crime" and "bringing drugs" to the US was basically right; about half of all Chump supporters link undocumented immigrants to more crime than US citizens...I think you get the idea.
And are you ignorant of how the word "racism" is used by most English speakers, including many black Americans, without the constraint of the perpetrator having to belong to the dominant racial group?

Of course not. I just find that definition to be useless in accounting for white colonialism, white people's centuries-old history of occupying other countries, white people exploiting POCs all around the world politically, economically, sexually...There is just no other ethnic group in the history of mankind who has ever had more to answer for.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts:10890
Joined:2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)

Re: Racism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-11-24, 22:46

I don't buy that voting for a black guy twice means you can't be racist. But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.
[ˈmoːdjeðɑŋk]


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests