Feminism

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Re: Feminism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-10-04, 21:36

Varislintu wrote:For example, I now feel a bit bad about how often I just carelessly replied "I don't know" in my childhood when my mother asked me what we might want to eat (my mother cooked, my father did not). She was doing a big emotional labour effort in providing us with not just food but healthy food that fit our tastes and that we ate together regularly as a family (in other words, it was a caretaking and family-building act). I could have showed more interest.

But if you believe that children don't owe their parents anything, then why should you have to feel bad about that?

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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-05, 7:20

vijayjohn wrote:
Varislintu wrote:For example, I now feel a bit bad about how often I just carelessly replied "I don't know" in my childhood when my mother asked me what we might want to eat (my mother cooked, my father did not). She was doing a big emotional labour effort in providing us with not just food but healthy food that fit our tastes and that we ate together regularly as a family (in other words, it was a caretaking and family-building act). I could have showed more interest.

But if you believe that children don't owe their parents anything, then why should you have to feel bad about that?


I "shouldn't'" anything, that's not the thing. But I'm now an adult, and I can see how my mother's emotional labour was exploited in my childhood in our home, and as an adult I can look back at child-me and wish I had had more insight then. But adult-me and child-me are not the same person, and adult-me has different responsibilites than child-me.

If that makes any sense. :P

To put it in another way: There was emotional labour inbalance, but it was not child-me's fault.

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Re: Feminism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-10-05, 13:26

Okay, so you're saying you wish you had more insight then so that you could have lessened the imbalance by showing more interest? Or like, if you had that insight, you think you would have?

(Sorry for causing this conversation to be pretty repetitive. I guess I'm just trying to think about how this would work with my own personal experience at the same time).

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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-05, 13:37

vijayjohn wrote:Okay, so you're saying you wish you had more insight then so that you could have lessened the imbalance by showing more interest? Or like, if you had that insight, you think you would have?


Yes, exactly so. :)

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Re: Feminism

Postby md0 » 2015-10-07, 8:00

http://jezebel.com/once-again-mass-shoo ... 1734927131

I know that in those situations, straight men are the last group we need to protect, but seriously, this toxic masculinity they are raised in needs to be destroyed not just for everyone else's safety, but for them as well.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-07, 8:07


Ah yes, we can add it to the traditional women's load of emotional labour to do constant work to keep men's fragile sense of masculinity validated so they don't get violent and hurt people. Turn them down gently, never show* you find them threatening, talk to them always nicely and demurely, sleep with them out of obligation and their born entitlement, and praise their opinons and thoughts no matter what it emotionally costs you. This is your task, ladies.

Edit: * actually that's wrong, you should never allege out loud that you find some male behaviour threatening. You can show it, though. Some of them actually like to see that.
Last edited by Varislintu on 2015-10-08, 10:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Lauren » 2015-10-07, 8:37

Ehh, meidei is right, Varislintu... He's right, straight men don't need to be protected and are super fucking privileged, but hypermasculinity does indeed hurt men. It's their own fault and women shouldn't have to do it all on our own though, that is correct. Some men are recognizing their privilege and improving their behaviors so they don't spread misogyny any more, and we need all men to do this. That will take a long time though.
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Re: Feminism

Postby md0 » 2015-10-07, 8:47

Apologies if I implied that women should be doing the things Varislintu listed. On the contrary. I used the word destroy because this fragile masculinity* needs to be shattered, for everyone's safety. Not accommodated.

*I'm not sure if fragile is the right word though. It makes it sound cute and non-threatening, when evidently it's not. It's a toxic masculinity that has real-world effects.

Men can go on living without masculinity, and I think they'll live happier lives. Most importantly, they won't endanger anyone else.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-07, 9:07

Lauren wrote:Ehh, meidei is right, Varislintu... He's right, straight men don't need to be protected and are super fucking privileged, but hypermasculinity does indeed hurt men.


Ah, I should have realised how it would look if I quoted meidei's whole post like that. :doh:

I wasn't targeting my scorn at meidei at all, but at the "ideal world order" that men like this mass shooter would like to exist in. It's a world that is only ideal if you are a very particular kind of man. Other men and women would suffer from it.

Sorry for being so unclear, meidei.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-07, 9:34

meidei wrote:Men can go on living without masculinity, and I think they'll live happier lives. Most importantly, they won't endanger anyone else.


But does it really have to be like that? Can't we rather work towards trying to leave out "violent jerk" from the definition of masculinity in our culture? Masculinity in itself is not bad. Or how do you see it?

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Re: Feminism

Postby md0 » 2015-10-07, 9:44

It's gonna be a new kind of masculinity perhaps, or a number of masculinities which exclude the toxic one. In this context I don't think there's a need to make a distinction. The point is that this masculinity shouldn't be tolerated any more, but men can go on being men (happier men in fact) without this masculinity (be it The Masculinity, or one of the possible masculinities that happens to be dominant in the society; I still don't think there's need to make a distinction in this context).
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Re: Feminism

Postby Lauren » 2015-10-07, 20:42

Varislintu wrote:
Lauren wrote:Ehh, meidei is right, Varislintu... He's right, straight men don't need to be protected and are super fucking privileged, but hypermasculinity does indeed hurt men.


Ah, I should have realised how it would look if I quoted meidei's whole post like that. :doh:

Ah okay, that makes sense. ^-^
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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-08, 10:02

Lauren wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Ah, I should have realised how it would look if I quoted meidei's whole post like that. :doh:

Ah okay, that makes sense. ^-^


Yeah, sorry. I went back now and edited the post to how it should have been constructed.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-08, 11:25

There's this thing that occurred to me the other day as I read this articel on Vice:

I Love Wolf Whistles and Catcalls; Am I a Bad Feminist?

You can probably all guess how much of a divide there can be between people who are calling for an end to catcalling (/street harrassment) and people who come out and openly say "I liked it, gimme sum more".

Now, personally I don't have much experience of catcalling or street harrassment because it was just not a very common thing when I was growing up, and now I'm a bit too old to be a prime target for that kind of stuff (yay!). However, I have numerous times vitnessed and experienced how some men try to control public space by intimidation.* And succeed in doing so as well. So for me that is something that happens, is a fact, and someone's personal account of how they have never noticed it will not have a huge impact on that. But I do accept those kinds of accounts as genuine. And I totally accept that there are women who genuinely enjoy catcalls and would even want more of them.

(*Actually, just a couple of weeks ago I had one of these experiences. It surprised me a little -- I'm so old and grumpy that I don't blip on these kinds of men's radar much anymore and I had almost forgotten that it happens. I was waiting for my boyfriend outside a café in the busiest cente of Helsinki in broad daylight. In just a couple of minutes, I get a hoverer. He's a bit older and a lot bigger than me. Ostensibly strolling around smoking an electric cigarrette. But I can see him looking at me from sideways. He strolls closer, sort of, then further away again. I mentally shrug and decide to read the plaque of a statue that I've never bothered to read before. Suddenly he's standing there too, ostensibly reading it. Okay. I turn away from it. He starts doing fly-bys. He walks away, then walks past me real close. Ridiculously close because there's nobody else within a 10 m radius. He likes especially to approach from behind at an angle. I'm like "seriously?". Then he goes for the finale: he stops right in front of me. Still trying to look like he's just enjoying his cigarette. But at the same time he's broken a good handful of social scripts. Who goes stand right in front of another person in a street area where nobody else is immediately close? And then he breaks another few by staring me straight in the eyes. Now look, I'm old enough and feministically-aware enough and cis-privileged enough that I don't fear for my safety. In fact, I'm seconds away from bursting out laughing at the Kafka-essness of encountering entitled men. But also Finnish enough that it doesn't occur to me to say anything to him -- maybe I could have come up with something witty or absurd. Also, I'm aware of the remaining 1% chance that he's mentally retarded and it just doesn't show, and I don't want to be mean to people like that. But the moment passes, he smiles smugly and walks away, sits down on a bench further away. I know this wasn't love. This was "I'm going to make you feel uncomfortable alone in public space because I'm bored and bigger than you, volume 254.")

Anyway, the thing that occurred to me is that the discussion between the two camps on this issue is actually remarkably similar to the discussion between the pro-spanking and anti-spanking camps of child rearing. :hmm: First of all, it can almost never avoid getting heated, and quickly. Second, there is a huge divide in scope of perspective between the two camps in both issues. Thirdly, there is a mistrust and contempt going both ways between the two camps in both issues. And I mean, consider these exchanges (that I have encountered, but am of course paraphrasing here):

Spanking

Pro: I was spanked as a child and it didn't do me any harm, in fact I benefitted from it.
Anti: Well good for you, I personally didn't enjoy being belted and slapped for no good reasons and hating my parents for it.
Pro: That's not what I mean by spanking.

Catcalling

Pro: I've been catcalled and it didn't make me feel threatened. In fact it flattered me.
Anti: Well good for you. I persoanlly didn't enjoy being followed around by men twice my size and in vans and being told "I'd hold a knife to that" or "I'd fuck you up the ass" even since I was 9.
Pro: That's not what I mean by catcalling.

----------------------------------

Spanking:

Anti: Spanking is hitting and hitting is abuse. Spanking erodes confidence in children.
Pro: Spanking is not hitting and also not abuse. Spanking teaches right from wrong.

Catcalling:

Anti: Catcalling is malevolent and harrassment. Catcalling makes public space unwelcoming to women.
Pro: Catcalling is neither malevolent or harrassment. Catcalling makes women feel more beautiful.

----------------------------------

Spanking:

Pro: People who are anti like to make such victims of themselves. But we can all cope with a bit of spanking. And anyway, it's all in the mindset -- if you stop being such a special snowflake and take the attitude that spanking makes you better and stronger then you'd enjoy it more.
Anti: I can't believe you're dismissing my feelings of having been mistreated with a shrug. And your only advice seems to be for me to learn to enjoy my abuse, then it would all be better. It's the abuser's job to stop. Then it would be better.

Catcalling:

Pro: People who are anti like to make such victims of themselves. But we can all cope with a bit of catcalling. And anyway, it's all in the mindset -- if you stop being such a special snowflake and take the attitude that catcalling makes you prettier and more attractive then you'd enjoy it more.
Anti: I can't believe you're dismissing my feelings of having been mistreated with a shrug. And your only advice seems to be for me to learn to enjoy my abuse, then it would all be better. It's the abuser's job to stop. Then it would be better.

----------------------------------

Spanking:

Pro: If you say spanking is wrong, then you are saying my beloved parents are abusive.
Anti: A person can be doing abusive things without bad intention and out of cultural influence or ignorance.

Catcalling:

Pro: If you say catcalling is wrong, then you are saying this man that I knew who catcalled was abusive, even if I knew him and liked him.
Anti: A person can be doing abusive things without bad intention and out of cultural influence or ignorance.

----------------------------------

Spanking:

Pro: If spanking is done with good intentions, without anger and without causing pain or damage by good level-headed parents, then there's nothing wrong with it. This is what I call spanking.
Anti: If all those conditions were met, there would be no need to actually follow through with the spanking in the first place. A parent like that could just use some other method that didn't involve hitting.

Catcalling:

Pro: If catcalling is done with good intentions, without the intent to threaten and without causing fear or insult by a non-misogynistic man, then there's nothing wrong with it. This is what I call catcalling.
Anti: If a man had those intentions, there would be no need to actually follow through with the catcalling in the first place. A man like that could just use some other method that didn't involve demanding women's attention in public space.

----------------------------------

Spanking:

Pro: What the hell is the problem with a spank here or there!? It's no big deal...! Jesus!
Anti: We see the issue as much bigger than a spank here or there in individual parent-child relationships. We see in play here a whole history and culture of non-recognision of children's rights, of a refusal to afford them the same protection from hitting that adults have, a refusal to recognise children as having valid feelings. Parents have been shown by studies, experience and testimony to be unable to exercise their right to hit responsibly, and the practice causes clear psychological damage that isn't counterweighted by an improved sense of discipline, life skills or knowledge of right and wrong in the children, because such effects are nonexistent. There is no defensible reason that parents should have an automatic right to hit.

Catcalling:

Pro: What the hell is the problem with a catcall here or there!? It's no big deal...! Jesus!
Anti: We see the issue as much bigger than a catcall here or there in individual cases of women passing men on the street. We see in play here a whole history and culture of men controlling women through intimidation, of our cultural baggage of sexism and misogyny. We see this as a non-recognision of women's right to have equal presense in public space, as a refusal to afford them the same right to be left alone that men have, and as a refusal to recognise the effect catcalling has. Men have been shown by studies, experience and testimony to be unable to exercise their right to catcall responsibly, and the practice causes clear psychological damage that isn't counterweighted by an improved sense of confidence or a feeling of being pretty or attractive or appreciated as a human being in girls and women. Some women report an improvement in these areas but most women don't. There is no defensible reason that men should have an automatic right to catcall.

:P

EDIT: Oh my god, I forgot the funny one:

Spanking:

Pro: Like, omg I can't talk to you anti people without you going all extreme! If you call spanking abusive one more time...
Anti: We're trying to explain that we see spanking as abusive and violent and that is why it is wrong.
Pro: Taliban! Fundamentalist! Creationist!

Catcalling:

Pro: Like, omg I can't talk to you anti people without you going all extreme! I you call catcalling harrassment one more time...
Anti: We're trying to explain that we see catcalling as a subset of street harrassment, which is abusive, and that is why it is wrong.
Pro: Fundamentalist! Patronising anti-feminist! Taliban!

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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-10-15, 11:49

It's been a while since just 10 minutes of reading has caused such a big perspective change in me, so I thought I'd put a link to this here, too. It's about Afrcian American teenage pregnancy.

Weathering and delayed births, get your norms off my body edition

I've always thought of teen pregnancies among economically poor black American women as a kind of negative consequence of the inequalities of the US society (and the structural racism). I've accepted without much critical thought that falling pregnant as a teenager will harm the lives of black women the same way as I could see it harming white women (here in Finland or in the USA). Never did I consider that early childbearing might be an adaptive behaviour.

Of course, early childbearing is not all fun and games if it's an adaptive behaviour to deepseated racial, economical and educational inequalities, but still, if we take into account the adaptive aspect, and the realities that poor black women face in the USA, then the solution to their problem is not "stay unpregnant as long as you can, preferably to 25+". That is a solution that yields welfare results for white women, but not so much for black women.

Essentially the crux of the text behind the link amounts to: Poor black women in the USA have children early because they don't expect to live much past middle age (and they are correct), because they don't have educational prospects to ruin, because they need their mothers around to help them before those mothers die (which they soon will, at middle age), and because they have no income ladder to climb.

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-10-15, 20:44

A friend posted this link to Facebook. Within minutes, some guy from the UK posted about how the guy was absolutely right and went on to viciously attack anyone who disagreed with him.

http://www.themarysue.com/uk-student-objects-consent-workshops/.

tl;dr: A student at the University of Warwick got an invitation to a workshop on consent. Instead of just ignoring it or dismissing it as irrelevant, he took it as a personal affront and blogged about how insulting and unjust it was, thus igniting a national debate.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Saim » 2015-10-16, 10:46

You'd have to be pretty self-absorbed to take a Facebook invitation as a statement about you as an individual. I should've started a national debate all the times people invited me to play Farmville with them, or the times when I'm invited to events that aren't even in the country I live in.

Ah, the special feeling you get when logging into Facebook and find someone thinks you’re cool enough to invite to their event. Is it a house party? Is it a social? All the possibilities race through your mind. Then it hits you. You tap the red notification and find you’ve been summoned to this year’s “I Heart Consent Training Sessions”. Your crushing disappointment quickly melts away and is overcome by anger.


I mean just... what? I just want to go up to him and say "mate, it's not about you, get over yourself".

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Re: Feminism

Postby Vlürch » 2016-03-18, 19:08

Prowler wrote:Like in any other social media place, your feed will only get flooded with what you follow

Wrong. On Tumblr, the SJWs will search out any "offensive" people and make their life a living hell by doxing them, harassing them, publicly shaming them, suing them and/or every other kind of consequences they can cause.
Aurinĭa wrote:And whatever you do, don't read the comments on the Guardian. Full of people defending him. :?

Why shouldn't he be defended? He stated his opinion. People have the right to have opinions, right? Right...? Oh.
Lauren wrote:straight men don't need to be protected and are super fucking privileged

Oh boy... :roll:
Lauren wrote:It's their own fault

No, it fucking isn't. Women keep telling men that they're "too girly", "gay", etc. far more than men do.

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-03-18, 19:23

Vlürch wrote:Women keep telling men that they're "too girly", "gay", etc. far more than men do.

[citation needed]
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-03-19, 7:47

Starting to think you've never spent a whole lot of time around women or men, especially during adolescence.
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