Feminism

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linguoboy
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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-03-19, 16:26

mōdgethanc wrote:Starting to think you've never spent a whole lot of time around women or men, especially during adolescence.

Same. The number one go-to insult in my all-boys high school was calling someone feminine. It was even more common than calling them gay. Literally not a day would go by in that place without me hearing something like, "You're a woman and you're weak!" But I can't remember a single woman ever calling me "girly" or "gay" in order to hurt me.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2016-03-19, 16:35

I feel like every single American media product that counts itself as comedy or partially comedic, has at least one joke where something is disparaged by likening it to the female. If nothing else, at some point someone says "Hello, ladies", to a mixed group or a group of men (case in point: the movie Deadpool, which I watched recently). In Finland, it's less present in media products (at least so articulatedly) but there is definitely a cultural trend of men policing each others' masculinity vs. femininity in groups, especially the adolescent or young adult kinds.

Also, I'd be curious to know how Vlürch sees this in a larger, historical context. Is he seriously claiming that women invented the concept of the female being 'less' or 'more pathetic', without any feedback from the male-dominated society?

I just read a little article about Britain's first professional author, Aphra Behn (1600s) in the Finnish feminist magazine Tulva. After she published her first play, she got a lot of feedback from men about how it wasn't proper that a woman writes and publishes. In the foreword of her second play, she writes (and I translate back from Finnish), "I ask only for some right to express my masculine side, the poet in me". Is Vlürch positing that for example Behn is simply expressing her natural female nature in viewing her skill as a "masculine" side of her, trapped due to unfortunate fate in a less valuable female body? That for example Behn is not reflecting in any way what men thought at the time?

I would see women disparaging men by likening men to women as regurgitating the same ideas that were present in Behn's time, in the 1600s. Those ideas are still fed to us in our modern cultural products -- the women mentioned have simply adopted them instead of the other alternative, consciously rejecting them. I would see them as part of the problem, yes, but hardly the source of the problem. The source goes back way, way further.
Last edited by Varislintu on 2016-03-21, 5:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feminism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-03-19, 17:13

mōdgethanc wrote:Starting to think you've never spent a whole lot of time around women or men, especially during adolescence.

I seem to recall he admitted at one point to not getting out much.

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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-03-19, 18:54

linguoboy wrote:Same. The number one go-to insult in my all-boys high school was calling someone feminine. It was even more common than calling them gay. Literally not a day would go by in that place without me hearing something like, "You're a woman and you're weak!" But I can't remember a single woman ever calling me "girly" or "gay" in order to hurt me.
In my day, perhaps because I went to a co-ed school, it was more often boys disparaging each other (or anything, really) with "gay" or "fag". Of course, "don't be such a girl" was common too, but not as much, and it was rarely said by girls. When you think about it, which gender is more likely to be misogynistic?
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Re: Feminism

Postby IpseDixit » 2016-04-18, 19:04

Image

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Re: Feminism

Postby Johanna » 2016-04-18, 19:18


Which is why when I go out I prefer a gay club or bar, I've never ever been treated badly by anyone of any gender who's approached me in one, and neither have my male friends of any orientation, but when I go to a regular one, chances are that I will have to deal with at least one drunk straight guy who can't take a no.

By "can't take a no" I mean in any form, mostly it's been comments like the one in the pic and after that they've left me alone, but sometimes they've been more insistent and therefore scary. Luckily I've only been physically harassed twice (taking my arm and not letting me go) and both times the bouncers threw out the guy head first pretty much.
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Re: Feminism

Postby IpseDixit » 2016-04-19, 9:34

Johanna wrote:

Which is why when I go out I prefer a gay club or bar, I've never ever been treated badly by anyone of any gender who's approached me in one, and neither have my male friends of any orientation, but when I go to a regular one, chances are that I will have to deal with at least one drunk straight guy who can't take a no.

By "can't take a no" I mean in any form, mostly it's been comments like the one in the pic and after that they've left me alone, but sometimes they've been more insistent and therefore scary. Luckily I've only been physically harassed twice (taking my arm and not letting me go) and both times the bouncers threw out the guy head first pretty much.


Wow, that's quite sad. :\

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Re: Feminism

Postby Johanna » 2016-04-20, 15:56

IpseDixit wrote:
Johanna wrote:

Which is why when I go out I prefer a gay club or bar, I've never ever been treated badly by anyone of any gender who's approached me in one, and neither have my male friends of any orientation, but when I go to a regular one, chances are that I will have to deal with at least one drunk straight guy who can't take a no.

By "can't take a no" I mean in any form, mostly it's been comments like the one in the pic and after that they've left me alone, but sometimes they've been more insistent and therefore scary. Luckily I've only been physically harassed twice (taking my arm and not letting me go) and both times the bouncers threw out the guy head first pretty much.

Wow, that's quite sad. :\

I guess...

To me it's just normal, and like I said, when things became physical the bouncers stepped in.
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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-04-20, 16:36

Johanna wrote:To me it's just normal

Which is the saddest part of all.

I've gone dancing with female friends in both gay clubs and straight clubs. One of the most striking things about the latter for me is the number of straight men who simply stand on the edge of the dance floor and stare intently at the women dancing. It creeped me out so much, I couldn't imagine what it took for my friends to simply ignore it.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Johanna » 2016-04-20, 17:47

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:To me it's just normal

Which is the saddest part of all.

I know, but at the same time it's hard to feel anything about it because I've never known anything else and I haven't been to a regular club in ages anyway.

linguoboy wrote:I've gone dancing with female friends in both gay clubs and straight clubs. One of the most striking things about the latter for me is the number of straight men who simply stand on the edge of the dance floor and stare intently at the women dancing. It creeped me out so much, I couldn't imagine what it took for my friends to simply ignore it.

That is something that doesn't happen here to my knowledge, the guys are either on the dance floor too, or at the bar.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2016-04-21, 21:37

linguoboy wrote:I've gone dancing with female friends in both gay clubs and straight clubs. One of the most striking things about the latter for me is the number of straight men who simply stand on the edge of the dance floor and stare intently at the women dancing. It creeped me out so much, I couldn't imagine what it took for my friends to simply ignore it.



Is it strange to stare intently at some women dancing, especially if they are in a disco and are half-naked?

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Re: Feminism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-04-21, 21:47

Massimiliano B wrote:Is it strange to stare intently at some women dancing

Yes. EDIT: Well, unless maybe it was a choreographed performance intended for an audience, like a folk dance for celebrating a holiday or something.
especially if they are in a disco and are half-naked?

Who said anything about being half-naked?

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Re: Feminism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2016-04-21, 22:05

vijayjohn wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:Is it strange to stare intently at some women dancing

Yes. EDIT: Well, unless maybe it was a choreographed performance intended for an audience, like a folk dance for celebrating a holiday or something.
especially if they are in a disco and are half-naked?

Who said anything about being half-naked?



I think it's normal to stare at women dancing.

I wrote "especially if they are half -naked"; I didn't say that Linguoboy said so. In a disco a lot of women are half-naked.


If I stare at these girls, am I strange?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o3IA5lt32U
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2016-04-21, 22:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feminism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-04-21, 22:15

Massimiliano B wrote:If I stare at these girls, am I strange?

Yes. That's almost as much clothing as I'm wearing right now, except I'm not wearing a watch or shoes.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2016-04-21, 22:22

vijayjohn wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:If I stare at these girls, am I strange?

Yes. That's almost as much clothing as I'm wearing right now, except I'm not wearing a watch or shoes.


Do you think the girls in that video I posted don't want other men to watch them? Isn't their dress very tight, so that other people may can look at their body? So, what's strange in staring at them?

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Re: Feminism

Postby Saim » 2016-04-22, 0:25

Massimiliano B wrote:Is it strange to stare intently at some women dancing, especially if they are in a disco and are half-naked?


Yes.

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Re: Feminism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-04-22, 0:36

Massimiliano B wrote:Do you think the girls in that video I posted don't want other men to watch them?

Yes, my default assumption would be that people on a dance floor are there to dance, not to get men to stare at them.
Isn't their dress very tight, so that other people may can look at their body?

I don't know, and neither do you.
So, what's strange in staring at them?

The same thing that's wrong with staring at people in general: it's rude and creepy.

I honestly don't even see the point of this discussion. I think based on previous discussions I've seen you have with certain users here, the outcome is pretty predictable already: we disagree but both have viewpoints that we adhere strongly to and won't be convinced to back away from.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2016-04-22, 5:36

vijayjohn wrote:
Isn't their dress very tight, so that other people may can look at their body?

I don't know, and neither do you.


Exactly.

The idea that women only use public (or private recreational) spaces to attract the attention of men, that that is why they ever venture outside their homes or workplaces, is a misguided idea that lies at the core of why women avoid public spaces and public exposure more than men do (i.e. they end up self-limiting their lives and choices and hobbies and everything they decide to do and the hours they do it).

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Re: Feminism

Postby IpseDixit » 2016-04-22, 8:05

Massimiliano B wrote:Do you think the girls in that video I posted don't want other men to watch them? Isn't their dress very tight, so that other people may can look at their body? So, what's strange in staring at them?


You're so creepy.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2016-04-22, 9:41

Varislintu wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Isn't their dress very tight, so that other people may can look at their body?

I don't know, and neither do you.


Exactly.

The idea that women only use public (or private recreational) spaces to attract the attention of men, that that is why they ever venture outside their homes or workplaces, is a misguided idea that lies at the core of why women avoid public spaces and public exposure more than men do (i.e. they end up self-limiting their lives and choices and hobbies and everything they decide to do and the hours they do it).


Neither do you all. If I am in a disco and I see some girl like those in the video I posted (semi-naked), I do not ask myself whether they are there to attract men's attention or not. I just do what I want: I look (if I want) at them. This is not forbidden.


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