Racism

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
User avatar
Saim
Posts: 4040
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: QLD
Country: AU Australia (Australia)

Re: Racism

Postby Saim » 2016-11-25, 4:10

mōdgethanc wrote:But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest.


AFAIK some US Latinos are, as they'd say in Spanish, más papistas que el Papa. Like they feel that they've attained the American Dream and don't want others to come in ruining it. The same is true of some right-leaning Asians, I think.
Last edited by Saim on 2016-11-25, 8:06, edited 1 time in total.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14112
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-25, 4:51

The Republican Party has a history of convincing people to vote against their self-interest. This is why they have a lot of support from poor people even if their policies favor rich people instead.

Like I said, some (actually a lot) of my relatives are Donald Trump supporters even though I certainly don't think voting for him was in their self-interest (I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't know how these relatives of mine would be convinced to leave this country, and I don't even want to think about that part yet), and I'd be surprised if at least some of them hadn't voted for him. Now, I'm only talking about my relatives here, and I only have a vague idea of what they're thinking so this is only my opinion, but I think this is essentially because they've been misled about how much they stand to gain in this country, and the Republican Party has been very successful in playing on these feelings of theirs. I think it's indeed partly because they don't want other people ruining the American Dream they think they've attained but also because they are close-minded people who go out of their way to ingratiate rich white people in the hopes that this will give them financial success (and to be fair, this probably works to some extent) and who often don't even want to discuss politics or social issues with the rest of us.

User avatar
Michael
Posts: 6752
Joined: 2009-07-21, 3:07
Real Name: Mike
Gender: male
Location: Oak Park, IL (Chicago suburb)
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Michael » 2016-11-25, 7:49

mōdgethanc wrote:But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.

Because this was totally a single-issue election. (As a Hillary campaign ad once accused Sanders' of being about, but about elitism.)
N: American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) | B1: Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Greek (el) | A2: Azerbaijani (az) Persian (fa) | A1: Turkish (tr)
Personal language journals: TAC ‘17 (general log) | Türkî/Türkçe
I appreciate all corrections. In fact, I encourage them!
AVATAR: Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, founder of the modern Turkish Republic and champion of secularism

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14112
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-25, 9:09

Michael wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.

Because this was totally a single-issue election. (As a Hillary campaign ad once accused Sanders' of being about, but about elitism.)

What has this country come to when someone who repeatedly brags about how rich he supposedly is is perceived as the opposite of an elitist, rather than the very definition of the word?

Btw, I just googled the Latino vote for Chump, and apparently, there's some controversy about whether the Latino vote for Chump was really a record high or rather a record low.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 18992
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-11-26, 4:02

Michael wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.

Because this was totally a single-issue election. (As a Hillary campaign ad once accused Sanders' of being about, but about elitism.)

No election is ever single-issue. Reasons for voting for Trump were varied, just as reasons for voting for Clinton were. For some, it's all about the Supreme Court. And on the other extreme, some people (from opposite ends of the political spectrum) just want to see the world burn.

But, damn, do I see a lot of commentary trying to make the election single-issue. Whatever your personal hobbyhorse is (e.g. racism, sexism, elitism, the economy stupid, voter suppression, voting fraud) you can find an ex post facto theory which explains the election only in terms of it. But that doesn't make that theory valid.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14112
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-26, 4:35

It's not necessarily single-issue even on the individual level. I'll come right out and say it: I voted for Clinton. The reasons I did included all of the following:
  • I think it's about fucking time a woman was made president of the United States
  • this particular woman is a well-established politician with a lot of credentials to back her up compared to a lot of other American politicians
  • she's done a better job of listening to the concerns of ethnic minorities than most (American) politicians
  • she actually has concrete policy-related suggestions, unlike apparently any(?) of her competitors
  • an awful lot of the criticism directed at her is incoherent and, honestly, often seems to be based on a poor understanding of reality, so I don't really see a reason why I wouldn't vote for her
  • I tend to favor Democrats anyway (I can't think of a Democratic presidential candidate I wouldn't have voted for if I could have since, idk, Adlai Stevenson?)

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1565
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-28, 5:57

vijayjohn wrote:There's plenty of sources to support it.

You and the authors of those articles need a dictionary. Excessive force used against law breakers (and occasionally innocent people) is not genocide. A few police departments encouraging the arrest of more black people is not genocide. And shooting water at protesters is sure as hell not genocide. And it's laughable that "We Charge Genocide" is alleging genocide based on the section from the Genocide Convention which includes in the definition for genocide "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group." By that logic, police have committed genocide against every ethnic group in the US, because every ethnic group has been on the receiving end of excessive police force, or "serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", to some degree. Blacks have just been on the receiving end to a greater degree, which makes sense because as a group they are responsible for a highly disproportionate amount of the violent crime in this country. Since black Americans murder and harm each other at a far higher rate than the police do, are they committing genocide against their own group? That's where stretching definitions and logic beyond all reason will get you.

No. I'm not interested in assigning you a label.

Or maybe you can't tell me what bubble I'm in because you were just using a cheap comeback with zero consideration of its veracity.

Actually yes, some of them really are racist in the sense that they display (to varying degrees) the same racist attitudes towards other POCs that white racists do. Some of them also internalize racist stereotypes. I know both of these things for a fact because some of these people are my own relatives.

Sample size: some relatives

But to get back to your question: about 58% of Chump supporters admit having unfavorable views of Islam; 76% of Republicans support Chump's proposal to ban all Muslims from entering the US;

Religion≠race

70% of Republicans said that leaving aside the way Chump phrased it, his characterization of Mexicans as "rapists" who were "bringing crime" and "bringing drugs" to the US was basically right;

The statement was only aimed at a subset (illegal immigrants to the US) of Mexicans (which is not a racial category anyway).

[...] about half of all Chump supporters link undocumented immigrants to more crime than US citizens...I think you get the idea.

Undocumented immigrants≠a racial category

Okay, I'm glad we got it cleared up that you have no evidence for your claim.

Of course not. I just find that definition to be useless in accounting for white colonialism, white people's centuries-old history of occupying other countries, white people exploiting POCs all around the world politically, economically, sexually...There is just no other ethnic group in the history of mankind who has ever had more to answer for.

And here's where you show your true colors. You throw all whites in a bucket and say that we as a group have to answer for the crimes of not only other white people alive today, but also our ancestors. That's bigoted, regressive, and an incitement to racism. A betrayal of everything liberalism stands for.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14112
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-28, 6:34

Yasna wrote:You and the authors of those articles need a dictionary.

I'm not sure you realize that the definitions of words are not fixed; this is not how language works. But anyway.
Excessive force used against law breakers (and occasionally innocent people) is not genocide. A few police departments encouraging the arrest of more black people is not genocide. And shooting water at protesters is sure as hell not genocide. And it's laughable that "We Charge Genocide" is alleging genocide based on the section from the Genocide Convention which includes in the definition for genocide "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group." By that logic, police have committed genocide against every ethnic group in the US, because every ethnic group has been on the receiving end of excessive police force, or "serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", to some degree. Blacks have just been on the receiving end to a greater degree, which makes sense because as a group they are responsible for a highly disproportionate amount of the violent crime in this country. Since black Americans murder and harm each other at a far higher rate than the police do, are they committing genocide against their own group? That's where stretching definitions and logic beyond all reason will get you.

Wow, somebody drank the Kool-Aid.
Or maybe you can't tell me what bubble I'm in because you were just using a cheap comeback with zero consideration of its veracity.

No. I genuinely don't care.
Sample size: some relatives

Doesn't invalidate what I said
Religion≠race

Back to what I said about definitions - by that logic, Jews are not a race either, yet I challenge you to find me a source that says that the Nazis targeting Jews does not constitute racism.
The statement was only aimed at a subset (illegal immigrants to the US) of Mexicans (which is not a racial category anyway).

Illegal immigrants to the US are not a subset of Mexicans. ;)
[...] about half of all Chump supporters link undocumented immigrants to more crime than US citizens...I think you get the idea.

Undocumented immigrants≠a racial category

I'd like to see some evidence that the majority of Americans think of white people when they hear "undocumented immigrants."
Okay, I'm glad we got it cleared up that you have no evidence for your claim.

No, we did no such thing.
You throw all whites in a bucket and say that we as a group have to answer for the crimes of not only other white people alive today, but also our ancestors.

No. I observe both the history of white people and how white people today benefit from it, in different ways depending on where they come from. I observe their (often hypocritical) attitudes about things like violence, discrimination, and human rights violations. I notice, for example, how eager you are to condemn terrorism when it's committed by Muslims, but if the KKK is celebrating the new president-elect, nope, not worth a mention!

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1565
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-28, 15:19

This discussion is going no where since you won't even agree on the basic definition of words. All I will say is you have learned absolutely nothing about the negative consequences of your well-meaning politics. Good day.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1565
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2017-01-10, 17:34

Stumbled across this old video of Obama giving a book presentation in Boston, and ended up watching the whole thing. I just now noticed that something about the cadence of his speech is reminiscent of Carl Sagan. The video happens to be an excellent introduction to race relations in America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5JlqDnoqlo
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Meera
Global Moderator
Posts: 8561
Joined: 2008-05-27, 22:01
Real Name: Meera
Gender: female
Location: Philadelphia
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Racism

Postby Meera » 2017-01-26, 1:54

mōdgethanc wrote:I don't buy that voting for a black guy twice means you can't be racist. But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Drumpf when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.


All the men in my Muslim family voted for the, all of them! And I know other Afghans who voted for him as well when he flat out said we need to ban Muslims, when I said that too my dad, he was like "Oh he didn't mean it... Hillary has killed so many Muslims" etc. It is mind boggling.
अहिंसा/เจ
True Love:  (hi)
TAC 2017:  (ja)  (fr)
University: (ar)


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest