Racism

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Re: Racism

Postby Saim » 2016-11-25, 4:10

mōdgethanc wrote:But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest.


AFAIK some US Latinos are, as they'd say in Spanish, más papistas que el Papa. Like they feel that they've attained the American Dream and don't want others to come in ruining it. The same is true of some right-leaning Asians, I think.
Last edited by Saim on 2016-11-25, 8:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-25, 4:51

The Republican Party has a history of convincing people to vote against their self-interest. This is why they have a lot of support from poor people even if their policies favor rich people instead.

Like I said, some (actually a lot) of my relatives are Donald Trump supporters even though I certainly don't think voting for him was in their self-interest (I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't know how these relatives of mine would be convinced to leave this country, and I don't even want to think about that part yet), and I'd be surprised if at least some of them hadn't voted for him. Now, I'm only talking about my relatives here, and I only have a vague idea of what they're thinking so this is only my opinion, but I think this is essentially because they've been misled about how much they stand to gain in this country, and the Republican Party has been very successful in playing on these feelings of theirs. I think it's indeed partly because they don't want other people ruining the American Dream they think they've attained but also because they are close-minded people who go out of their way to ingratiate rich white people in the hopes that this will give them financial success (and to be fair, this probably works to some extent) and who often don't even want to discuss politics or social issues with the rest of us.

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Re: Racism

Postby Michael » 2016-11-25, 7:49

mōdgethanc wrote:But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.

Because this was totally a single-issue election. (As a Hillary campaign ad once accused Sanders' of being about, but about elitism.)
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-25, 9:09

Michael wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.

Because this was totally a single-issue election. (As a Hillary campaign ad once accused Sanders' of being about, but about elitism.)

What has this country come to when someone who repeatedly brags about how rich he supposedly is is perceived as the opposite of an elitist, rather than the very definition of the word?

Btw, I just googled the Latino vote for Chump, and apparently, there's some controversy about whether the Latino vote for Chump was really a record high or rather a record low.

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-11-26, 4:02

Michael wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Trump when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.

Because this was totally a single-issue election. (As a Hillary campaign ad once accused Sanders' of being about, but about elitism.)

No election is ever single-issue. Reasons for voting for Trump were varied, just as reasons for voting for Clinton were. For some, it's all about the Supreme Court. And on the other extreme, some people (from opposite ends of the political spectrum) just want to see the world burn.

But, damn, do I see a lot of commentary trying to make the election single-issue. Whatever your personal hobbyhorse is (e.g. racism, sexism, elitism, the economy stupid, voter suppression, voting fraud) you can find an ex post facto theory which explains the election only in terms of it. But that doesn't make that theory valid.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-26, 4:35

It's not necessarily single-issue even on the individual level. I'll come right out and say it: I voted for Clinton. The reasons I did included all of the following:
  • I think it's about fucking time a woman was made president of the United States
  • this particular woman is a well-established politician with a lot of credentials to back her up compared to a lot of other American politicians
  • she's done a better job of listening to the concerns of ethnic minorities than most (American) politicians
  • she actually has concrete policy-related suggestions, unlike apparently any(?) of her competitors
  • an awful lot of the criticism directed at her is incoherent and, honestly, often seems to be based on a poor understanding of reality, so I don't really see a reason why I wouldn't vote for her
  • I tend to favor Democrats anyway (I can't think of a Democratic presidential candidate I wouldn't have voted for if I could have since, idk, Adlai Stevenson?)

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-28, 5:57

vijayjohn wrote:There's plenty of sources to support it.

You and the authors of those articles need a dictionary. Excessive force used against law breakers (and occasionally innocent people) is not genocide. A few police departments encouraging the arrest of more black people is not genocide. And shooting water at protesters is sure as hell not genocide. And it's laughable that "We Charge Genocide" is alleging genocide based on the section from the Genocide Convention which includes in the definition for genocide "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group." By that logic, police have committed genocide against every ethnic group in the US, because every ethnic group has been on the receiving end of excessive police force, or "serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", to some degree. Blacks have just been on the receiving end to a greater degree, which makes sense because as a group they are responsible for a highly disproportionate amount of the violent crime in this country. Since black Americans murder and harm each other at a far higher rate than the police do, are they committing genocide against their own group? That's where stretching definitions and logic beyond all reason will get you.

No. I'm not interested in assigning you a label.

Or maybe you can't tell me what bubble I'm in because you were just using a cheap comeback with zero consideration of its veracity.

Actually yes, some of them really are racist in the sense that they display (to varying degrees) the same racist attitudes towards other POCs that white racists do. Some of them also internalize racist stereotypes. I know both of these things for a fact because some of these people are my own relatives.

Sample size: some relatives

But to get back to your question: about 58% of Chump supporters admit having unfavorable views of Islam; 76% of Republicans support Chump's proposal to ban all Muslims from entering the US;

Religion≠race

70% of Republicans said that leaving aside the way Chump phrased it, his characterization of Mexicans as "rapists" who were "bringing crime" and "bringing drugs" to the US was basically right;

The statement was only aimed at a subset (illegal immigrants to the US) of Mexicans (which is not a racial category anyway).

[...] about half of all Chump supporters link undocumented immigrants to more crime than US citizens...I think you get the idea.

Undocumented immigrants≠a racial category

Okay, I'm glad we got it cleared up that you have no evidence for your claim.

Of course not. I just find that definition to be useless in accounting for white colonialism, white people's centuries-old history of occupying other countries, white people exploiting POCs all around the world politically, economically, sexually...There is just no other ethnic group in the history of mankind who has ever had more to answer for.

And here's where you show your true colors. You throw all whites in a bucket and say that we as a group have to answer for the crimes of not only other white people alive today, but also our ancestors. That's bigoted, regressive, and an incitement to racism. A betrayal of everything liberalism stands for.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-11-28, 6:34

Yasna wrote:You and the authors of those articles need a dictionary.

I'm not sure you realize that the definitions of words are not fixed; this is not how language works. But anyway.
Excessive force used against law breakers (and occasionally innocent people) is not genocide. A few police departments encouraging the arrest of more black people is not genocide. And shooting water at protesters is sure as hell not genocide. And it's laughable that "We Charge Genocide" is alleging genocide based on the section from the Genocide Convention which includes in the definition for genocide "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group." By that logic, police have committed genocide against every ethnic group in the US, because every ethnic group has been on the receiving end of excessive police force, or "serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group", to some degree. Blacks have just been on the receiving end to a greater degree, which makes sense because as a group they are responsible for a highly disproportionate amount of the violent crime in this country. Since black Americans murder and harm each other at a far higher rate than the police do, are they committing genocide against their own group? That's where stretching definitions and logic beyond all reason will get you.

Wow, somebody drank the Kool-Aid.
Or maybe you can't tell me what bubble I'm in because you were just using a cheap comeback with zero consideration of its veracity.

No. I genuinely don't care.
Sample size: some relatives

Doesn't invalidate what I said
Religion≠race

Back to what I said about definitions - by that logic, Jews are not a race either, yet I challenge you to find me a source that says that the Nazis targeting Jews does not constitute racism.
The statement was only aimed at a subset (illegal immigrants to the US) of Mexicans (which is not a racial category anyway).

Illegal immigrants to the US are not a subset of Mexicans. ;)
[...] about half of all Chump supporters link undocumented immigrants to more crime than US citizens...I think you get the idea.

Undocumented immigrants≠a racial category

I'd like to see some evidence that the majority of Americans think of white people when they hear "undocumented immigrants."
Okay, I'm glad we got it cleared up that you have no evidence for your claim.

No, we did no such thing.
You throw all whites in a bucket and say that we as a group have to answer for the crimes of not only other white people alive today, but also our ancestors.

No. I observe both the history of white people and how white people today benefit from it, in different ways depending on where they come from. I observe their (often hypocritical) attitudes about things like violence, discrimination, and human rights violations. I notice, for example, how eager you are to condemn terrorism when it's committed by Muslims, but if the KKK is celebrating the new president-elect, nope, not worth a mention!

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2016-11-28, 15:19

This discussion is going no where since you won't even agree on the basic definition of words. All I will say is you have learned absolutely nothing about the negative consequences of your well-meaning politics. Good day.
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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2017-01-10, 17:34

Stumbled across this old video of Obama giving a book presentation in Boston, and ended up watching the whole thing. I just now noticed that something about the cadence of his speech is reminiscent of Carl Sagan. The video happens to be an excellent introduction to race relations in America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5JlqDnoqlo
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Re: Racism

Postby Meera » 2017-01-26, 1:54

mōdgethanc wrote:I don't buy that voting for a black guy twice means you can't be racist. But I'm also perplexed that so many Latinos voted for Drumpf when it's obviously not in their self-interest. Maybe it has something to do with their culture being more conservative, or maybe (like many poor white people) they just drank the Kool-Aid.


All the men in my Muslim family voted for the, all of them! And I know other Afghans who voted for him as well when he flat out said we need to ban Muslims, when I said that too my dad, he was like "Oh he didn't mean it... Hillary has killed so many Muslims" etc. It is mind boggling.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-08, 8:58

This evening, my dad went to a neighborhood meeting. He's been very active in our neighborhood for the past 2-3 years or so. When he came back home, he told me he had good news and bad news. The good news was that even our racist neighbors were beginning to warm up to those of us in the neighborhood that are Indian. The bad news was that apparently, there have been two hate crimes against Indians here in Austin. Nevertheless, it seems he thinks Austin is still a relatively good place for Indians to live with the Bay Area being even better.

I feel like I'm starting to lose my patience. It's almost like I wish he'd just hurry up and decide that we should move to India instead.

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Re: Racism

Postby TheStrayCat » 2017-03-08, 15:38

vijayjohn wrote:I feel like I'm starting to lose my patience. It's almost like I wish he'd just hurry up and decide that we should move to India instead.

I understand your fears, but even in the US an average Indian American is less likely to be killed by a racist than to die in a car crash or contract a life-threatening illness. What makes you think life would be better in India?
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-09, 0:53

TheStrayCat wrote:I understand your fears, but even in the US an average Indian American is less likely to be killed by a racist than to die in a car crash or contract a life-threatening illness.

I don't see how that matters. If we waited around for that probability to reverse itself, I think we'd be dead by that point.
What makes you think life would be better in India?

I never said I thought life would be better in India. If anything, I'm expecting the exact opposite, but if my choices end up boiling down to either having a potentially worse life or dying, I think I would choose having a potentially worse life.

I only expect that I'm less likely to be deliberately killed there; it's not like I can be singled out for my ethnicity there. Of course, that's not the only reason why people deliberately kill each other or anything, but I don't see any reason why I would be singled out there whereas I certainly do here, and I'm afraid of it getting to the point where I'm still less likely to be murdered there.

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Re: Racism

Postby TheStrayCat » 2017-03-09, 1:51

vijayjohn wrote:I never said I thought life would be better in India. If anything, I'm expecting the exact opposite, but if my choices end up boiling down to either having a potentially worse life or dying, I think I would choose having a potentially worse life.

But probabilities also matter a lot here! Moving to India will make your life worse with a very high chance (>50%), whereas your chances of dying are nowhere like that. They're not even close to 0.1%. And if you're looking for absolute safety, they will never be equal to 0% anyway regardless of your age, race or residence.

And don't forget that sooner or later we'll all be there, but life expectancy in India overall is 20 years less than that for Asian Americans.

vijayjohn wrote:I only expect that I'm less likely to be deliberately killed there; it's not like I can be singled out for my ethnicity there. Of course, that's not the only reason why people deliberately kill each other or anything, but I don't see any reason why I would be singled out there whereas I certainly do here, and I'm afraid of it getting to the point where I'm still less likely to be murdered there.

Out of all death causes for people your age and race in the US, racially motivated killings make up an extremely small fraction. Moving to India can eliminate it but increase many others - for example, dying due to poor healthcare. So even your chances of dying would be higher over there, not to mention worse quality of life. Do you think it would be worthwhile?
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-09, 2:14

TheStrayCat wrote:But probabilities also matter a lot here! Moving to India will make your life worse with a very high chance (>50%), whereas your chances of dying are nowhere like that.

But the probability of me dying here is increasing (and not just me, either - my entire family and most of our family friends). This is what worries me. If that increase remains unchecked, they will surely be up there, and I don't want to stick around until it's too late to escape such a situation. It is not clear to me yet how long this trend will last.
And don't forget that sooner or later we'll all be there, but life expectancy in India overall is 20 years less than that for Asian Americans.

Except that I am not the average Indian. Even if moving to India made my life worse, I'd still be hugely overprivileged compared to most Indians. I have more money, a (much) higher education level (with a master's degree from a major US university to boot), no inferiority complex, more opportunities open to me in general, way easier access to way more high-quality learning resources, and I have medicine and I have plenty of doctors in my family (and fairly important local family connections). I also just have a lot more things. Clothes, for example. Computers. And so on and so forth.

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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-05-25, 18:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=334AKSUgEbk

I guess this wouldn't fly in the States.

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-05-26, 4:38

You guess what wouldn't fly in the States?

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Re: Racism

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-05-26, 16:11

Blackface. He's right.

Isto é matemática racista. :roll:
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-05-26, 16:44

Well, it did fly in the States not so extremely long ago (among white people anyway...), and for all I know, there could still be some people here who do that for smaller audiences or something, but yeah, it is racist and not something I can recall being done publicly in my lifetime.

EDIT: It's definitely done in some older cartoons here, but I'm not sure most people these days who are exposed to them realize that that was what was being done in them.


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