Romanian with an Italic substratum.

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Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-10-14, 17:54

Hey guys i have found this site recently and it is really interesting i had before an doub that Romanian is an special romance language with diverse Italic similarities especially with the italian dialects especially with the vocabulary ad semantics.What do you think?
Aslo there are some similarities with Etruscan which are shared with Albanian too.
Etruscan Albanian Romanian
Ranam. Rane. Rană. -wound
Terg. Terg. Târg. -market
Carus. Gaw. Gaură. -hole
Carath. Gardth. Gard. -fence
Ana. Ane. Cană. -mug
Sili. Sjell. Sili. -to work hard
Cal. Cal. Cal. -horse

http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin43/p43t2.htm
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby linguoboy » 2013-10-14, 18:09

Zarcu Mihai wrote:Aslo there are some similarities with Etruscan which are shared with Albanian too.
Etruscan Albanian Romanian
Ranam. Rane. Rană. -wound
Terg. Terg. Târg. -market
Carus. Gaw. Gaură. -hole
Carath. Gardth. Gard. -fence
Ana. Ane. Cană. -mug
Sili. Sjell. Sili. -to work hard
Cal. Cal. Cal. -horse

What is this source for this list? It's not found on the site you linked to and I can't find any of the supposed "Etruscan" words in an accepted compilation of Etruscan vocabulary.

Moreover, several of these words have widely-accepted etymologies which have nothing to do with Etruscan or any other language of Italy. Two which strike me as particularly obvious: terg/târg from Proto-Slavic *tъrgъ "idem." and Albanian gardh [note correct spelling] from Proto-Indo-European *gʰórdʰos, the source of English yard, German Garten, Russian город, Latin hortus, etc. (The Rumanian is most likely a borrowing of the Proto-Slavic form, gordъ.)
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-10-14, 18:25

linguoboy wrote:
Zarcu Mihai wrote:Aslo there are some similarities with Etruscan which are shared with Albanian too.
Etruscan Albanian Romanian
Ranam. Rane. Rană. -wound
Terg. Terg. Târg. -market
Carus. Gaw. Gaură. -hole
Carath. Gardth. Gard. -fence
Ana. Ane. Cană. -mug
Sili. Sjell. Sili. -to work hard
Cal. Cal. Cal. -horse

What is this source for this list? It's not found on the site you linked to and I can't find any of the supposed "Etruscan" words in an accepted compilation of Etruscan vocabulary.

Moreover, several of these words have widely-accepted etymologies which have nothing to do with Etruscan or any other language of Italy. Two which strike me as particularly obvious: terg/târg from Proto-Slavic *tъrgъ "idem." and Albanian gardh [note correct spelling] from Proto-Indo-European *gʰórdʰos, the source of English yard, German Garten, Russian город, Latin hortus, etc. (The Rumanian is most likely a borrowing of the Proto-Slavic form, gordъ.)

Can you give me a source where it writes that many of the words has no cognates with Any language from Italia?aslo you are wrong many of these words are considered to be pf dacic origin and are cognate with Albanian ,check this out http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... ian_origin, Anyway the origins of Etruscan is a mistery maybe it Could have been an indo-european and i dont remember the source o think it was a book which i read on internet.This is interesting that these words that are NOT found in other romance cognates and with Etruscan and Albanian...hmm...anyway there are more like
Ape hap hap-interjections
Matu madh matahală-thugh
Evnu vene vin -i am coming
Aslo do NOT forget about this site it is really ineresting i knew that romanian has to do with many italian languages ...hmm...
Ati at tati-dad(daddy)
Ama ama mama-mum
Last edited by Zarcu Mihai on 2013-10-15, 3:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-10-14, 18:46

Sorry about the tona of mistakes my iPhone wont let me write a corect sentence...
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby linguoboy » 2013-10-14, 19:57

Zarcu Mihai wrote:Can you i've me a source where it writes that many of the words has so cognates with Any language from Italia?

I'm sorry but I'm utterly unable to parse this sentence.

Zarcu Mihai wrote:aslo you are wrong many of these words are considered to be pf dacic origin and are cognate with Albanian ,check this out http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... ian_origin

Wikipedia wrote:Some or all of this article's listed sources may not be reliable. Please help this article by looking for better, more reliable sources, or by checking whether the references meet the criteria for reliable sources. Unreliable citations may be challenged or deleted. (May 2013)

This article cites its sources but does not provide page references. You can help to improve it by introducing citations that are more precise. (May 2013)
(Emphasis in the original.)

Wikipedia wrote:Below is a list of Romanian words believed by early scholars to be of Dacian origin, but which have since been attributed to other origins (Latin, Albanian, Slavic, Greek) in most cases. The list does not include the Dacian plant names collected by Dioscorides and Pseudo-Apuleius since these words were not retained in Romanian.
(Emphasis mine.)

Moreover, the only word common to both lists is gard. I don't have access to Russu's work, so I don't know what his argument is for considering it a word of Dacian origin rather than a borrowing into Rumanian from either Albanian or Slavic. Can you summarise it for me?
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-10-15, 3:25

linguoboy wrote:
Zarcu Mihai wrote:Can you i've me a source where it writes that many of the words has so cognates with Any language from Italia?

I'm sorry but I'm utterly unable to parse this sentence.

Zarcu Mihai wrote:aslo you are wrong many of these words are considered to be pf dacic origin and are cognate with Albanian ,check this out http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... ian_origin

Wikipedia wrote:Some or all of this article's listed sources may not be reliable. Please help this article by looking for better, more reliable sources, or by checking whether the references meet the criteria for reliable sources. Unreliable citations may be challenged or deleted. (May 2013)

This article cites its sources but does not provide page references. You can help to improve it by introducing citations that are more precise. (May 2013)
(Emphasis in the original.)

Wikipedia wrote:Below is a list of Romanian words believed by early scholars to be of Dacian origin, but which have since been attributed to other origins (Latin, Albanian, Slavic, Greek) in most cases. The list does not include the Dacian plant names collected by Dioscorides and Pseudo-Apuleius since these words were not retained in Romanian.
(Emphasis mine.)

Moreover, the only word common to both lists is gard. I don't have access to Russu's work, so I don't know what his argument is for considering it a word of Dacian origin rather than a borrowing into Rumanian from either Albanian or Slavic. Can you summarise it for me?
omg dammit sorry man but as i told you i cant write one eight sentence with that phone.
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-10-15, 3:51

ROmanian and NOT RUmanian has borrowed from Albanian?first of all this is a fact of history Dacians Apulians venetians macedonians and others from Asia minor plus Dacians and thracians with illyrians(albanians) were part of traco-daco-illyrians family S-o they were related but romanian is Ford from dacian which got romanised and afterall dacian dissapeared while illyrians got partially romanised and their language did NOT dissapear!as you see Romanian developed from vulgar latin from the period of classical latin that means romanian has alot of original terms from latin which are absent in other romance bug let's NOT go there we were Talking about the substratum of Romanian.romanian gas dacian words cognate with slavic?i've seen on list theajority cognates with latin.
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Levike » 2013-10-15, 10:35

Romanian and Rumanian are both correct, the first being more popular.
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby linguoboy » 2013-10-16, 16:46

Mihai, I'm really not sure what your point is. I never said that Rumanian hasn't borrowed any vocabulary from Dacian or Illyrian, I'm just disputing particular examples which can plausibly be traced to other sources. Why wouldn't Rumanian have borrowed words from Albanian? There's good reason to believe that the ancestors of both varieties were in contact historically (whether or not Albanian is descended from Illyrian, a hypothesis which is not generally accepted in Indo-European linguistics). Certain more reason to believe this than that proto-Rumanian had any contact with Etruscan not shared by other varieties of Proto-Romance/Vulgar Latin.
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-10-17, 11:48

linguoboy wrote:Mihai, I'm really not sure what your point is. I never said that Rumanian hasn't borrowed any vocabulary from Dacian or Illyrian, I'm just disputing particular examples which can plausibly be traced to other sources. Why wouldn't Rumanian have borrowed words from Albanian? There's good reason to believe that the ancestors of both varieties were in contact historically (whether or not Albanian is descended from Illyrian, a hypothesis which is not generally accepted in Indo-European linguistics). Certain more reason to believe this than that proto-Rumanian had any contact with Etruscan not shared by other varieties of Proto-Romance/Vulgar Latin.

But why Romanian would have borrowed from Albanian?Anyway.But Illyrians and Dacians were related to eachother but Romanian never borrowed from Albanian!Yes it may have borrowed from Bulgarian ,Serbo-Croatian,Ukrainian or Hungarian but aslo borrowed from the Greeks that Ruled Romania and from Turkish when they we're dominated (but not Pasalac how we say Turkish province) in the period of Ottoman Empire.There is no historical fact that Romanian had posibility to borrow from Albanian,anyway these words that are similar to Albanian are cognate with latin too,and some Italian dialects!But there is a myth that Dacians we're the same people as the Latins,maybe they both got influenced by Etruscans? or they were all related!I just want to hear opinions.That's why i opened this Thread.That's my point.And Levente,i know that Rumanian was the old variant but the Rhaeto-Romance people are declaring aswell to be descendands from Romans,but still you call it Romansch in many languages and not Rumansch...used only in some languages but Rumanian was used in almost all languages,which is not that fair...but anyway...
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Levike » 2013-10-17, 18:20

I find it very possible that Romanian would have borrowed from Albanian.

Just looking at the map, we're not that apart from each other.
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-10-18, 3:40

Levente wrote:I find it very possible that Romanian would have borrowed from Albanian.

Just looking at the map, we're not that apart from each other.

Romanian borrowed from the others which sorrounded it,and Turkish and Greek due the Dominance,Romanian never been in touch with Albanian,and Romanians never heard about Albanians untill XIX-th century.When every European nation has discovered it and its Indo-European Roots.
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-10-20, 10:37

Guys,it looks like no one else wants to share information or opinions about this subject,should I delete this thread?
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby daniel201088 » 2013-11-01, 1:45

well, actually, a lot of people say that Romanians can understand easily Sardinian
what do you thing ??? :D

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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-11-01, 17:38

daniel201088 wrote:well, actually, a lot of people say that Romanians can understand easily Sardinian
what do you thing ??? :D

Well Sardinian is an archaic language.an little more than Romanian but yea it developed different than western romance and retained archaic vocabulary and grammar like Romanian aslo Aromanian it looks similar to Sardinian here's a comparable list!
Sarda Româna Aromâna Italiana
agiutoriu ajutor agiutoru aiuto
cantigu cântec cãnticu canzone
limba limba limba lingua
giosso jos Ghiosu. Giu
abba Apă. Apã Acqua
Arburi. Arbore. Arburi. Arvore
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-11-01, 17:42

ITS a really mistery how sardinian has so manu similarties with arhaic romanian even so romanian used to have more latin words before like...cărindă,luduș,sec,mur,cătină...but most of them are used in Aromanian!if you are interested to did more interesting things out about arhaic romanian just tell me :)BTW I posted some Aromanian INFO on "what do you think about Aromanian?" Topic made by Levente!
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-11-01, 17:50

Levente wrote:Romanian and Rumanian are both correct, the first being more popular.
I never understood how or why "Rumania[n]" caught on when their names in the language itself are România and română. (The only places I've seen them used are in the Oxford Book of Quotations and here by linguoboy.) But then, one could ask why we say "French" if the language is called français.

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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Levike » 2013-11-01, 18:28

mōdgethanc wrote:I never understood how or why "Rumania[n]" caught on when their names in the language itself are România and română.

My explanation is that in many languages ( Slavic ones ) the way they call us contains u.

Russian: Румыния
Polish: Rumunia
Bulgarian: Румъния
Serbo-Croatian: Румунија

In Hungarian it is even crazier.
The way we call many countries does not resemble at all how they call themselves.
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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-11-02, 4:59

I think it's more likely that it was influenced by the French Roumanie.
The way we call many countries does not resemble at all how they call themselves.
You could say that about English too. I don't think many people have heard of Magyarország or Bhārat here. (I do like Crna Gora, though.)

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Re: Romanian with an Italic substratum.

Postby Zarcu Mihai » 2013-11-02, 5:42

"Român" descends from Lat.Romanus (Citizen of Rome) but it ia INHERITED NOT borrowed like other romance (with an exception the Romansch people which they declare aswell to be descendent from romans and the word descends aswell from Lat.Romanus).But at the same time the popular word for Român is Rumân (that shows that in easten romance like sicilian and sardinian o>u) which is choosed by other nations instead of Român but that NOT happens for Romansch people which it is just Romansc and less common Rumansch but that does NOT mean that we are NOT latins like other latin people in europe.This term with "u" is used to distinguish romanians from romans...
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