Aromanian- Armãneshce

dimos
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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby dimos » 2009-05-25, 11:11

AdiJapan wrote:Borrowing words is natural. All languages do that, sooner or later. [...]


it is natural phenomenon but it indicates "weak" languages with limited ability to create new words. e.g. the greek language has retained it's purity and uses very few foreign words, which of course have their greek equivalent...

the question is: can our aromanian-vlah laguage be so independent?
Last edited by dimos on 2009-05-25, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby AdiJapan » 2009-05-25, 14:25

dimos wrote:
AdiJapan wrote:Borrowing words is natural. All languages do that, sooner or later. [...]

it is natural phenomenon but it indicates "weak" languages with limited ability to create new words.

Not necessarily. Borrowing does not always reflect an incapacity of creating new words. For instance Japanese is a very strong language, with a long tradition of being independent and self-sufficient, having enough flexibility and resources to create its own new words. But today it borrows heavily from English, for various reasons. (Just now I'm reading an instruction manual for an audio amplifier and about half of the words are English borrowings! This would be inconceivable in a European language.)

In the 19th century Romanian borrowed a huge number of words from French, so much so that now about 40% (!) of the Romanian vocabulary is of French origin. It may very well mean that Romanian was a weak language at that time, but after all these borrowings it became much stronger, to the point where today it has no difficulty in expressing whatever is needed in every field.

Borrowing is good. Artificially trying to avoid borrowings won't work anyway.
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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby Cisza » 2009-05-25, 16:09

AdiJapan wrote: Borrowing does not always reflect an incapacity of creating new words.


Exactly. For example, the Polish word "dach" (roof) was borrowed from German, does it mean that Polish was so weak language that it was unable to create (or retain) its own word for such a basic thing? In the same time, Polish names for calcium and aluminium are of Slavic origin (wapń and glin respectively), while Russian uses words of Latin origin—does that mean Polish is "stronger" than Russian?
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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby Riptide » 2010-03-27, 1:05

Hey, so I've been looking into some Aromanian, but I need some help. I want to know what is the equivalent of Romanian's a fi in Aromanian. Also, I would like to know what the missing forms of the present tense are (the ones I don't know):

RomanianAromanian
suntescu
eştieshti
esteeasti
suntem?
sunteţi?
suntsuntu
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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby AdiJapan » 2010-03-27, 10:49

Riptide wrote:Hey, so I've been looking into some Aromanian, but I need some help. I want to know what is the equivalent of Romanian's a fi in Aromanian. Also, I would like to know what the missing forms of the present tense are (the ones I don't know):

RomanianAromanian
suntescu
eştieshti
esteeasti
suntem?
sunteţi?
suntsuntu

Aromanian does not have an infinitive, if that was your first question. Dictionaries list verbs with their 1st person singular of the present indicative, in this case escu.

The verb escu is irregular and for some forms it has variants:

Romanian Aromanian
sunt escu, hiu
eşti eshti, hii
esteeasti, ãi, i-, -u
suntemhim
sunteţihits
suntsuntu, -s


Here is the full definition of a fi from a Romanian-Aromanian dictionary that used to be available online:

fi = vb – éscu, híu / hím, -s, ám, fác; ex: mini cari escu (sunt) njic; tsintsi anj, unã zãmani, di cãndu escu (sunt) fur; njic escu (sunt), minut escu (sunt), tutã lumea nvescu (angucitoari: ac); aoa him (sunt) sh io; noi him (suntem) di aljurea; io hiu (sunt) di aoa, el di iu easti (este)?; hii (esti) amoni? aravdã, hii (esti) cioc? umflã; i a meu, i a meu (este al meu); adunatã gljem ãi (este) tutã; iu l u (unde-i) neni?; a cui sh u (îsi este) irghilia-atsea?; nu sh u tsiva (nu si-este nimic); cum tu lumi nu sh u (nu si-este) altu; ma vidzu cã lj u fratili (cã-i este), ãlj dishcljisi; duri-ts u (ti-e destul); hoarã him (suntem sat = stãpîni suntem); iu hits (unde sunteti), bre gionj?; s vã bãneadzã shi s vã hits (sã vã fiti = sã vã fiti unul altuia); sunt (sunt) golj di turmi muntsãlj; nu s dauã ceapi (nu sunt doi pasi); ca mini nu s (nu sunt ca mine); nu vor alti si s minteascã, cã fu (a fost) nveastã, cã fu (a fost) featã; nu fu zori (nu fu greu = nu e greu); s lj ashtergu rasa, cã-u mutrescu... fu (a fost) ncãrcatã; sh fu (si a fost = este) gheatru multu bun; seara, cãnd s mi tornu, si-nj dzãts cum fu (a fost) ma ghini; bãrbat fu, muljari fu (fie cã a fost (este) bãrbat, fie cã a fost (este) femeie); pãrintsã fu, oaspits fu, nveastã cu bãrbat fu (fie cã sunt pãrinti, cã sunt prieteni, cã sunt bãrbat cu sotie); lj aflã omlu: fu cu bun, fu cu furari (fie pe cale bunã, fie cu furt); sh dzãtsi singur: buni sh furã, dicãt, buni sunt shi n gurã (îsi spune singur: bune si-au fost (sunt), dar, bune sunt si-n gurã); mãcã ndeasã, furã marsini-i purinti (mãnîncã, îndoapã, fie cã mîncãrurile au fost (sunt) de post sau dulce); furã mãri i furã njits (fie cã furã (sunt) ori cã furã mici); ncãldzãrea, fu iarna fu veara (cã fu (este) iarnã cã fu (este) varã), tru udaea di durnjiri lipseashti s tsãnã; ari futã (a fost) sh tatã-su ahtari; tu hãpsani fusesh (fusesi); fusesh (fusesi) ahãt fãrã di minti; acãtsat cã sh fusi loclu (cã terenul îsi fuse ocupat strategic); di casã nj, hibã-ts njilã (fie-ti milã); s furesh (de ai fi fost) om cum lipseashti, nu pitritseai oaminj s mi-arãcheascã; s fure ficior, hilj sã nj hii, s furesh featã, hilji si-nj hii (dacã tu ai fi fecior, sã mi fii fiu, de esti fatã, fiicã sã mi fii); s furesh cã-i dadã, s u fatsim mumã (de o fi mamã s o facem mamã), s furesh cã-i sor (de e sorã sã o facem sorã), s u fatsim sor, s furesh cã-i nor, s u fatsim tut nor (de o fi norã s o facem tot norã); s fure ndreptu (de ar fi drept) zborlu a tãu; s fure mortu, s fure viu, voi cu nãs dipriunã s hiu (de o fi mort, de o fi viu, vreau mereu cu el sã fiu); s nu fure el cu una (de n o fi el cu una); si nu fure (dacã nu va fi), ti mãcãm; s fure cã videm (dacã o fi cã vedem) cã tut vinlu s featsi puscã; furesh cã va s pot (de o fi cã voi putea); ai cã ficior, ai cã featã fure (hai cã o fi bãiat, hai cã o fi fatã); nu aleapsi ghini, fure cã-i bãrbat, fure cã-i muljari (nu distinse bine dacã e bãrbat sau dacã e femeie); fur cã-i ashi (de o fi asa); s fure cã-l cunoashti (dacã o fi cã-l cunoaste); pi stranji s videa cã turcu sh eara (cã era turc); s eara sh unã ascheri ntreagã (chiar dacã era si o armatã întreagã); o lele! s eara si shteam (dacã as fi stiut), pri la cãlivi nu tritseam; fundalui / hiindalui (fiind) ninca tu fashi; fundalui (fiind) alaturea di nãs; armas di cãndu feci (de cînd am fost) araftu; ari (este) un mes di cãndu muri; tsi oarã avem (este)?; ma nu ari (sunt) trei minuti; estan nu ari (sunt) oi multi tu muntsã; nu si-ari-avutã (nu a fost vreodatã) ahãtã iarbã; shtits cã ari (sunt) stihii aoatsi?; cãtse nu ari (sunt) ghiftsã furi; avea (era) tr-un loc un preftu; nu lu-avea (era) iuva

I didn't write down any details about the dictionary, except for the URL:
http://www.ctarm.org/ctarm/component/op ... 1/lang,ro/
There is a hidden e-mail address on that page now.
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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby Riptide » 2010-03-27, 12:34

Mulţumesc AdiJapan. 8-)
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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby dimos » 2010-08-20, 22:11

I am an Aromanian myself, but i have never heard some words like "Armãneshce", "easti", "muljari", "bisearica" etc, instead we say "Rãmãneshti", "esti", "muieri", "biserica". Could u tell me where they speak like that?

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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby AdiJapan » 2010-08-21, 5:58

dimos wrote:I am an Aromanian myself, but i have never heard some words like "Armãneshce", "easti", "muljari", "bisearica" etc, instead we say "Rãmãneshti", "esti", "muieri", "biserica". Could u tell me where they speak like that?

I probably know even less than you about this, but from what I've read I know that there are several Aromanian dialects. None of them has risen to being considered standard by all Aromanians and also the communication among the Aromanians of the different branches is rather poor. As such it turns out that what some may consider the proper language, for others it's not, and vice versa.

Words like armãneashti, easti, muljari, bisearicã appear in linguistic works by Tiberius Cunia, who is trying to help in establishing a common standard of Aromanian. He seems to have the support of Aromanians from all branches. See, for instance:

- Cursul di scriari armănească (there are links on the right to each lesson)
- Dictsiunar a Limbãljei Armãnească (click the fullscreen button)

Now your own dialect might differ from this emerging standard, although I suspect it's just very small differences in vocabulary and phonology. This may seem to be unfortunate, but it is unavoidable, especially for languages that are geographically diverse. In fact I don't know of any language that is so uniform as to be easily standardized.
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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby dimos » 2011-10-13, 10:50

AdiJapan wrote:
dimos wrote:I am an Aromanian myself, but i have never heard some words like "Armãneshce", "easti", "muljari", "bisearica" etc, instead we say "Rãmãneshti", "esti", "muieri", "biserica". Could u tell me where they speak like that?

I probably know even less than you about this, but from what I've read I know that there are several Aromanian dialects. None of them has risen to being considered standard by all Aromanians and also the communication among the Aromanians of the different branches is rather poor. As such it turns out that what some may consider the proper language, for others it's not, and vice versa.

Words like armãneashti, easti, muljari, bisearicã appear in linguistic works by Tiberius Cunia, who is trying to help in establishing a common standard of Aromanian. He seems to have the support of Aromanians from all branches. See, for instance:

- Cursul di scriari armănească (there are links on the right to each lesson)
- Dictsiunar a Limbãljei Armãnească (click the fullscreen button)

Now your own dialect might differ from this emerging standard, although I suspect it's just very small differences in vocabulary and phonology. This may seem to be unfortunate, but it is unavoidable, especially for languages that are geographically diverse. In fact I don't know of any language that is so uniform as to be easily standardized.


i hadn't read your answer untill today, one year later :)
since they are trying to standardize the language, why dont they use the forms that are more original "esti", "biserica" etc rather than "easti", "bisearica".....

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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby AdiJapan » 2011-10-13, 13:41

dimos wrote:i hadn't read your answer untill today, one year later :)

Well, better one year later than never...

dimos wrote:since they are trying to standardize the language, why dont they use the forms that are more original "esti", "biserica" etc rather than "easti", "bisearica".....

Original? You mean closer to the Proto-Romanian roots? That is not a criterion in standardizing languages (on the contrary, I'd say). Instead, usually the forms most easily understandable by most speakers are chosen as standard. Sometimes the dialect that has more prestige is chosen, but it doesn't seem to be the case here, since no Aromanian dialect has an obviously better literary tradition than the others. As I said last year, whatever you choose as standard, some speakers will feel that standard is not close enough to their dialect. There is no simple solution. The alternative is to leave the language unstandardized, or to split it into several standards. I'm not sure those solutions are useful though.
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Re: Aromanian- Armãneshce

Postby Koko » 2015-03-20, 4:07

Does anyone know of some good resources (in English)? I found a dictionary, but it doesn't have anything on like, declensions or conjugations.


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