Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Muisje » 2014-01-17, 13:22

Varislintu wrote:Actually, sometimes I feel like instead of asking, "why would I use partitive?", it's more fruitful to ask, "why would I use n-accusative?", since often it is the n-accusative that carries a much more limited meaning. :hmm: :)
You know.. there are linguists who had that exact same thought and wrote papers about it. :) There's a lot of interesting stuff on the difference between partitive/accusative. There was one who linked it to the concept of 'boundedness' (Paul Kiparsky maybe?). So accusative is bounded (finished, complete, separate entity) and partitive is unbounded (unfinished, no clear beginning or end point). It's too theoretical to be really useful in everyday language learning, but it's interesting :P I can look up my references later if anyone's interested, right now I'm actually procrastinating and should get back to my work :whistle:
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Levo » 2014-01-17, 13:48

Varislintu wrote:Näen hänet kadun toisella puolella.
I see him across the street.

Näen häntä aika usein.
I see (i.e. meet with him) him pretty often.


Thank you for the examples. That's how I imagined. I get it now.
Varislintu wrote:Rakastan sinua.
I love you.

Rakastan sinut kuoliaaksi.
I will love you to death.

:)

Here I'm a bit mixed up...

kuoliaaksi - like "till I die"?

In case yes, then... I guess the action "consumes" me. Since it will kestää all through my life. Is that the logic?

Or did you mean, "deadly"?

The Finnish teacher explained us "rakastan sinua" the following way: Now I may love you, but it doesn't mean I will love you later on.
All the girls at Finnish lesson stopped moving and stared at her with big eyes. Well, now how I remember, even the guys did so.
And one girl even added: "But this is so sad!" :D

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2014-01-17, 15:33

Levo wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Rakastan sinua.
I love you.

Rakastan sinut kuoliaaksi.
I will love you to death.

:)

Here I'm a bit mixed up...

kuoliaaksi - like "till I die"?

In case yes, then... I guess the action "consumes" me. Since it will kestää all through my life. Is that


I think you got it wrong. It's "you" who's going to be dead, not "me". :D Kuoliaaksi refers to "sinut", so it's somewhat like "I'll love you so much that you die". That's kinda consuming for "you", I guess.

Levo wrote:The Finnish teacher explained us "rakastan sinua" the following way: Now I may love you, but it doesn't mean I will love you later on.
All the girls at Finnish lesson stopped moving and stared at her with big eyes. Well, now how I remember, even the guys did so.
And one girl even added: "But this is so sad!" :D


Well, we could also think that the difference is in complete/incomplete distinction. I won't stop loving you, so the process is uncompleted forever and so I have to say "rakastan sinua"... :D (Compare with "luen kirjan/kirjaa": the first one has clear intention to complete the reading, whereas the second one doesn't.)
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Iván » 2014-01-17, 15:50

There are verbs which often require partitive, such as rakasta, pelata, seurata, etc.

As said above, the partitive/accusative issue is probably one of the hardest things about this language.
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Levo » 2014-01-17, 19:59

Naava wrote:
Levo wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Rakastan sinua.
I love you.

Rakastan sinut kuoliaaksi.
I will love you to death.

:)

Here I'm a bit mixed up...

kuoliaaksi - like "till I die"?

In case yes, then... I guess the action "consumes" me. Since it will kestää all through my life. Is that


I think you got it wrong. It's "you" who's going to be dead, not "me". :D Kuoliaaksi refers to "sinut", so it's somewhat like "I'll love you so much that you die". That's kinda consuming for "you", I guess.

I was rather lost in the translation of the death thing. Now it makes sense more :) Then it really consumes the other one literally! :)))
Naava wrote:
Levo wrote:The Finnish teacher explained us "rakastan sinua" the following way: Now I may love you, but it doesn't mean I will love you later on.
All the girls at Finnish lesson stopped moving and stared at her with big eyes. Well, now how I remember, even the guys did so.
And one girl even added: "But this is so sad!" :D


Well, we could also think that the difference is in complete/incomplete distinction. I won't stop loving you, so the process is uncompleted forever and so I have to say "rakastan sinua"... :D

But these all make sense! Thanks.

May I have another question then? What is the verb for "falling in in love with someone".
With all that was discussed above... I would put that into accusative... (except in case it has some other attraction, like elativus or something...). I wonder if my logic is correct here?

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Iván » 2014-01-17, 20:19

ihastua + illative, but you can also use it without the case. "Mutta kun katoin sua kadulla, tiesin että ihastun" - But when I saw you on the street, I knew I fell in love with you.
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2014-01-18, 10:05

Iván wrote:ihastua + illative, but you can also use it without the case.

Another word is "rakastua". (Ihastua is more like that you fancy someone, rakastua is to really fall in love.) What Iván said applies here, too: You can use either illative or nothing. :)
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Levo » 2014-01-19, 1:10

Naava wrote:
Iván wrote:ihastua + illative, but you can also use it without the case.

Another word is "rakastua". (Ihastua is more like that you fancy someone, rakastua is to really fall in love.) What Iván said applies here, too: You can use either illative or nothing. :)


Good, we also use illative in Hungarian :)

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Levike » 2014-02-06, 20:07

Levo wrote:Good, we also use illative in Hungarian :)
What is illative? And how does it work in Hungarian?

Also, is the Finnish ä pronounced exactly like the Hungarian e?
I've been listening to some Finnish songs and to me they sound the same.
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2014-02-07, 17:34

Levente wrote:Also, is the Finnish ä pronounced exactly like the Hungarian e?
I've been listening to some Finnish songs and to me they sound the same.

According to Wikipedia, they're pretty close but not the same. I can see (or hear :D) why you think they're similar, but for me, Hungarian E still sounds more "e-ish" than what Ä should. I don't myself speak Hungarian, so I could be wrong. Anyway, Wikipedia said that this is what E is supposed to sound in Hungarian whereas this is more close to Finnish Ä. (Though I think it sounds a bit funny.)

By the way, does anyone happen to know why people claim everywhere that this would be the Finnish A? At least I think that I pronounce it like this.
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Varislintu » 2014-02-07, 18:56

My Hungarian boyfriend definitely insists on a difference between Hungarian e and Finnish ä, and I also hear it. But he says that eastern dialects of Hungarian pronounce Hungarian e more like Finnish ä. Maybe that is how you say it in Romania, too? :)
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Thon » 2014-03-17, 7:51

illative

Illative is a fancy Latin word for a case that expresses the idea of "into". The Hungarian suffix is -ba (at least according to Wikipedia).

Here's a great video illustrating the difference between the ä and e sounds -- and two nice minimal pairs for you to practice:

lehti 'leaf' ~ lähti 'went'
kesi 'peeled off' ~ käsi 'hand'

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Varislintu » 2014-03-17, 12:22

Thon wrote:
illative

Illative is a fancy Latin word for a case that expresses the idea of "into". The Hungarian suffix is -ba (at least according to Wikipedia).

Here's a great video illustrating the difference between the ä and e sounds -- and two nice minimal pairs for you to practice:

lehti 'leaf' ~ lähti 'went'
kesi 'peeled off' ~ käsi 'hand'


(However, the Finnish e-sound is different from the "eh" demonstrated in the video.)

Based on the video -- does this mean the Hungarian e-sound is the same as the English vowel in words like "gem"? :shock: That would be wonderful news, because I have struggled for years with trying to say the Hungarian e-sound.
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Levike » 2014-03-17, 12:27

Varislintu wrote:That would be wonderful news, because I have struggled for years with trying to say the Hungarian e-sound.
Your boyfriend is teaching you Hungarian? :P

If you want I could upload an audio, maybe my "e" is similar to the Finnish one.
In that case you could say "Meh, I speak with a Transylvanian accent, deal with it!".
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Varislintu » 2014-03-17, 13:08

Levente wrote:
Varislintu wrote:That would be wonderful news, because I have struggled for years with trying to say the Hungarian e-sound.
Your boyfriend is teaching you Hungarian? :P


Not actively, but I hear it so much that I have a small basic vocabulary -- however, since I can't say the "e", which is in like every word, I rarely try to say anything in Hungarian.

Levente wrote:If you want I could upload an audio, maybe my "e" is similar to the Finnish one.
In that case you could say "Meh, I speak with a Transylvanian accent, deal with it!".


Sure, it would be interesting to hear it. I wouldn't mind sounding "dialectal" myself. :) So far, though, my boyfriend says that my pronunciation just sounds really weird. :P (I think Hungarians are somewhat unused to hearing their language spoken non-natively. A bit like Finns are as well, but even more, since Hungary has less immigrants.)
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby PiotrR » 2014-03-17, 13:40

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
Last edited by PiotrR on 2014-04-02, 2:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Varislintu » 2014-03-17, 14:06

PiotrR wrote:It shows that standard Hungarian short <e> /ɛ/ is actually [æ], close to standard American English /æ/ in the word bad.

Wikipedia cites Iivonen & Harnud (2005:60, 66) on <ä> /æ/ in standard Finnish being a front open vowel [a], close to modern RP realization of /æ/ in the word bad.


Oh dear, first that sounded wonderful, but then I realised I probably don't know the difference between American English "bat" and RP "bat". I've been pronouncing a sort of American "bat" with the Finnish <ä>, which in other words has actually been more like RP, and that means that the word's worth as a reference point is lost to me.
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Levike » 2014-04-04, 12:44

Here's me with a Hungarian tongue-twister. :D
I found one that has a lot of e's.

Do they resemble the Finnish ä?

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gJ8bQQXgEd

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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Varislintu » 2014-04-06, 8:24

Levike wrote:Here's me with a Hungarian tongue-twister. :D
I found one that has a lot of e's.

Do they resemble the Finnish ä?

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gJ8bQQXgEd


No, actually I don't think that sounds like Finnish ä. If I had to transcribe this tongue twister (using Finnish spelling) from just the recording, I think I'd write that sound with the letter e, even if it's not like Finnish e either. :hmm: :)
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Re: Questions about Finnish / Kysymyksiä suomen kielestä

Postby Naava » 2014-04-06, 9:03

I agree with Varislintu, it sounds e for me. I think you could speak Finnish with that e and nobody would have problems to understand what you say.

Maybe someone could record the same tongue-twister but with Ä's? It might be easier to hear the difference then. (Or why not just something like älä rääkkää kääkkääkään with lots of Ä.)
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