DIRECTIONAL VERBS

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Jnɨɨñɨ
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DIRECTIONAL VERBS

Postby Jnɨɨñɨ » 2011-09-02, 22:48

In Finnish, adverbials associated with some verbs expressing change or direction appear in one of the directional cases (elative, illative, ablative, allative), whereas in many Indo-European languages the equivalent expression would contain a ‘static’ preposition.

These verbs include etsiä ‘look for’, jättää ‘leave’, jäädä ‘stay’, löytää ‘find’, ostaa ‘buy’, pysähtyä ‘stop (intrans.)’, pysäyttää ‘stop (trans.)’, rakentaa ‘build’ and unohtaa ‘forget’.


So what is a "Directional verb"? :?

It says "verbs expressing change or direction", but I don't see how "etsiä", "löytää", "ostaa" or "unohtaa" espress any "change or direction" :roll:

Also, after the above quoted explaination, this finnish grammar book states some examples of "directional verbs" and the previously given explaination applied:

Hän etsii avainta tasku/sta. (He looks in his pocket for the key.)
Hän löytää kolikon kadu/lta. (He finds the coin in the street.)
Hän löytää avaimen tasku/sta. (He finds the key in his pocket.)
Elanno/sta löysin uudet kengät. (I found new shoes at Elanto.)
Aion jäädä Ruotsi/in. (I intend to stay in Sweden.)

In all of those examples I would have said something different:
Instead of "Hän etsii avainta tasku/sta" I would have said "Hän etsii avainta tasku/ssa."
Instead of "Hän löytää kolikon kadu/lta" I would have said "Hän löytää kolikon kadu/lla."
Instead of "Hän löytää avaimen tasku/sta" I would have said "Hän löytää avaimen tasku/ssa."
"Elanno/sta löysin uudet kengät." VS "Elanno/lla löysin uudet kengät."
"Aion jäädä Ruotsi/in." VS "Aion jäädä Ruotsi/lla."

I supposse all of the forms I would have choosen would have been wrong, cuz they all are "Directional verbs", but the question is:

What in God's name is a "Directional verb"?

How to identify them?
What makes them different form another verbs?
The book says they're different because they express a direction or change, but I don't ses how "löytää" expresess a direction or change.
Are "directional verb" like english "irregular verbs", which simply are diferent and you have to look for them in the dictionary?

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Re: DIRECTIONAL VERBS

Postby Jnɨɨñɨ » 2011-09-02, 23:21

I think I got it:

So if NOT the verb alone, but THE WHOLE EXPRESSION IN CONTEXT (which includes the verb) indicates the direction or place where a certain action takes place, then the adverb or complement will be in one of the directional cases (elative, illative, ablative, allative)... right?

So:
"Juna pysähtyi asema/lla" is wrong, as "Juna pysähtyi asema/lle" is correct.
(The train stopped at the station).

But, is there another instance where Adesive case is wrong and Allative is correct?

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Re: DIRECTIONAL VERBS

Postby Miumau » 2011-09-03, 16:37

Jnɨɨñɨ wrote:I think I got it:

So if NOT the verb alone, but THE WHOLE EXPRESSION IN CONTEXT (which includes the verb) indicates the direction or place where a certain action takes place, then the adverb or complement will be in one of the directional cases (elative, illative, ablative, allative)... right?


Yes, I would say that this is the basic idea. But these are just conventions, and you shouldn't think about it in terms of English (or some other language).

So:
"Juna pysähtyi asema/lla" is wrong, as "Juna pysähtyi asema/lle" is correct.
(The train stopped at the station).


Actually these are both correct ;) They just don't mean exactly the same thing.

Juna pysähtyi asemalla = The train stopped at the station (as part of its schedule/route)
Juna pysähtyi asemalle = The train stopped in the station (physically)

Notice the at/in difference also in English.

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Re: DIRECTIONAL VERBS

Postby Miumau » 2011-09-03, 16:47

Some more thoughts on your examples, maybe this helps you understand the logic behind them... So on the meanings of the sentences, this is how I would interpret them:

Jnɨɨñɨ wrote:Instead of "Hän etsii avainta tasku/sta" I would have said "Hän etsii avainta tasku/ssa."

Hän etsii avainta taskusta = He looks for the key in the pocket (hoping that the key is in the pocket)
Hän etsii avainta taskussa = He looks for the key, in a pocket (He looks for the key, while somehow being inside a pocket himself)

Instead of "Hän löytää kolikon kadu/lta" I would have said "Hän löytää kolikon kadu/lla."

Hän löytää kolikon kadulta = He finds a coin on the street (the coin is on the street)
Hän löytää kolikon kadulla = He finds a coin (somewhere), while being on the street

Instead of "Hän löytää avaimen tasku/sta" I would have said "Hän löytää avaimen tasku/ssa."

Same as for the "etsiä" case above.

"Elanno/sta löysin uudet kengät." VS "Elanno/lla löysin uudet kengät."

Elannosta löysin uudet kengät = I found new shoes in Elanto (think: I bought new shoes from Elanto!)
Elannolla löysin uudet kengät = I found new shoes while being at Elanto

"Aion jäädä Ruotsi/in." VS "Aion jäädä Ruotsi/lla."

Well, this one might not make any sense if you think about it literally, but the verb "jäädä" just takes illative. You would say "Aion pysyä Ruotsissa", however.

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Re: DIRECTIONAL VERBS

Postby Jnɨɨñɨ » 2011-09-15, 2:41

Thank you vvvffery much for your comments, Miumau!
Everything makes sense now!

Tietän, että kysyn paljon kysymyksiä :oops:
Ole hyvä, ja älä suivaannu :P


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